08-30-2004, 04:19 AM
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Car maker that most Resembles ALFA
I have often wondered over the past and present as to which car maker people thought most resembles ALFA Romeo in terms of design ethos, history etc.
I will get the ball rolling.
MG gets my vote.
Here's why.
1. Both companies have a very long tradition of competing in motor sport going way back. Both firms competed in Motorsport at all levels.
MG and ALFA were both formidable in Formula 1 in the prewar years, both MG and ALFA competed sucessfully in sportscar racing in post and prewar events, such as Le mans, Mille Miglia, Targa Floria, Sebring. Today both firms are still present in motorsport in categories that they both excelled at in the past, MG at in Sports car racing and World Rally, ALFA in Touring Car.
2. Both companies built saloon cars with a sports influence and sports and GT cars.
3 Both Alfa and MG have enormous fan bases that stretch all over the world.
4. Both MG and ALFA proved to be very popular in the worlds largest market the USA.
5. MG and ALFA are responsible for producing two of the worlds most popular and universally recognizable sports cars which sold in huge numbers and were responsible for turning more people into sportscar nuts than any other maker. Namely the MGB and the ALFA Spider.
6. Both Companies produced exotic expensive machinery before the war and in the postwar years relatively modestly priced machinery that were relatively affordable.
7. in the prewar years both companies created technically advanced machinery for road and track. ALFA with the Bimotore and MG with the Q type and the R type.
8. Both firms were the visions of individual men who were not content selling other peoples products. Nicolo Romeo took over alfa when they were producing locally built De Dions which were unsuitable for the local market. MG started out with Cecil Kimber selling Morris vehicles that he soon decided to modify for competition.
7. Both MG and ALFA were taken over by larger concerns and had good and bad perods under them. ALFA by Fiat, MG by Nuffield/BMC/British Leyland.
8. Both firms had terrible badge engineered crap produced in there name in recent years. The Metro in the case of the MG and the Arna in the case of the ALFA.
9. Both marques have had a new lease of life in the past few years.
10. Both MG and ALFA are acronyms ( ok I am running out of ideas).
Can anyone think of a closer match?
__________________
Phil
1961 MGA 1600 Roadster, British Racing Green
1966 Giulia Sprint GT ,Argento
1970 1750 GTV s2, Verde Olivo Metallica (AR213)
2005 Holden Rodeo LT Crew Cab, Fox Fire Red
{Oo==V==oO}
Previously owned
1983 Ford Laser KB, Beige
1985 Volvo 360 GLT Dark Mettalic Blue
1970 GT Junior stepnose Resprayed Red, Giallo Ochre
1923 Amilcar Sports, rusty
I may only own two ALFAs now, but the handle stays as I am always chasing another one. 
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08-30-2004, 07:10 AM
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The only two that come to mind are Ferrari and BMW.
Ferrari mostly because of Enzo's start at Alfa.
BMW because of their rivalry, both being long time powerful euro car makers, and currently they are quite desireable cars.
Im sure there are many many more similarties with these two companies,but im at work on a 'break' daydreaming about alfa's 
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08-30-2004, 07:52 AM
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Within the last 40 years I say it's FIAT. The Alfa 105 is directly comparable to the Fiat 124 series. They both had twin cams, five speeds, twin A frame front suspensions with live rear axles and panhard rods in the back. No common British or German car has all of these features and was available in Spider, Coupe, and, Sedan forms like the 105s and 124s were.
Both cars started messing around with front drive at the same time and both went entirely to Front drive at the same time and of course now that Fiat owns Alfa they are more similar then ever.
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08-30-2004, 09:12 AM
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I agree mostly with Phil. In fact, I have been drawn into some MG books lately. However, I think there is a big difference in some areas. I believe that Alfas were much better built cars in the classic era compared to MGs. I think that MGs were much less reliable. Also, Alfas of that era were built with racing technology and parts. A significant part of MGs were somewhat 'leftovers' from the garage bin. Hence, they were miles apart as far as technology went.
Andre
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79 Spider (Donata)
88 325is (Johann)
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08-30-2004, 10:43 AM
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In the 1920s thru 1940s, the company probibly closest to Alfa was Bugatti.
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08-30-2004, 10:34 PM
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Seeing a Mk 1 Ford Cortina up on three is just as pleasing as seeing an alfa doing the same. Similarities probably and there!
__________________
"If it works perfectly, it probably ain't an Alfa"
'77 Alfetta 2000
'82 Sud Ti
'84 Alfa 33 GCL
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08-31-2004, 07:00 AM
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A Mk 1 Cortina is sort of like an Alfa. I don't see the MG comparison though. There may be historical similarities between the two companies but when you compare common enthusiast models like say a 1972 Alfa Spider and a 1972 MGB it's like they were designed on different planets. Compare the Alfa Spider to a Fiat 124 and it's like they were both designed by the same guy on the same day, just with one car having a little more money thrown into it for upscale features like forged suspension arms, chain driven cams etc.
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08-31-2004, 10:17 PM
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 Quote:
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Originally Posted by dretceterini
In the 1920s thru 1940s, the company probibly closest to Alfa was Bugatti.
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I would agree about the cars, but I think there were some important differences in the companies. The cars Alfa and Bugatti produced were similar in their racing accomplishments and desirability, but they were two very different companies. Bugatti worked around Bugatti. He was the center of their universe. For Alfa, the racing team and the engineers were the heart and soul before the war. There really wasn't such a dominant personality at Alfa, and that's a good part of the reason they survived. Even Jano was fired.
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09-02-2004, 04:58 AM
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by tokky28
I agree mostly with Phil. In fact, I have been drawn into some MG books lately. However, I think there is a big difference in some areas. I believe that Alfas were much better built cars in the classic era compared to MGs. I think that MGs were much less reliable. Also, Alfas of that era were built with racing technology and parts. A significant part of MGs were somewhat 'leftovers' from the garage bin. Hence, they were miles apart as far as technology went.
Andre
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Sorry Andre I cannot agree with you here. Prewar racing MGS were very high tech machines. Take a look at an R type or a Q type some time. Prewar, MG was a leading propponent of OHC engines, superchargers and were the foremost user of Preselector GearBoxes. I am not going to go into preselector in the BB but suffice it to say they do exactly what they are called, preselect. Basically you choose the gear before you need it and then when you use the clutch the car changes gear. Lets just say it is the 1930's version of selespeed and what all F1 cars use these days.
MGs were way ahead of Bentley in terms of technology, Bently just used raw grunt, MG did the same thing with less but were smarter about it. MGs Super charged six cylinder OHC engines were some of the finest examples of engine making in the 1930's.
Don't judge them by items such as the MG TC and the B. In the thirties produced some amazing race cars Midgets Magnas and Magnettes. A short-wheelbase K3 Magnette took a class win in the Mille Miglia road race - the first non-Italian car to do so - and another was fourth overall in the 1934 Le Mans 24 Hours; a third, driven by Tazio Nuvolari, won the Tourist Trophy.
Don't forget that MG was also a record breaker in the pre and postwar periods aswell. George Eyston continued to take further land speed records in his latest special-bodied "Magic Midget", the EX127. By 1939, MG had made around 22,500 cars altogether - and set some more land speed records, with Goldie Gardner's EX135 reaching over 200mph. MG continued to produce record breakers in the 50's and 60's based on their sportscars, with the EX 179, EX 181 and EX181 a supercharged record-breaker, the last of MG's aerodynamic land speed record holders and driven to over 250mph by Stirling Moss and Phil Hill in 1959 and based on the MGA Twin Cam.
The MG of the 30's and the MG of the 1960's are poles apart, along the way MG wound up at the mercey of Nuffield and later BMC/British Leyland indifference, but even then they pushed ahead with high tech solutions. MGA twin cam had disk brakes all round in 1958 when only jaguar was using them and when more exotic machines such as Porsche 356 and Alfa Giuliettas were still on Drums. Even the MGA 1600 had front disk brakes. The MGA Twin Cam was unfortunately rushed into production with not enough development time in the end only 2000 examples were made of this rare beast. It is a shame that they scrapped the Twin Cam before they got it right as an MG B with a Twin Cam engine would have been something.
__________________
Phil
1961 MGA 1600 Roadster, British Racing Green
1966 Giulia Sprint GT ,Argento
1970 1750 GTV s2, Verde Olivo Metallica (AR213)
2005 Holden Rodeo LT Crew Cab, Fox Fire Red
{Oo==V==oO}
Previously owned
1983 Ford Laser KB, Beige
1985 Volvo 360 GLT Dark Mettalic Blue
1970 GT Junior stepnose Resprayed Red, Giallo Ochre
1923 Amilcar Sports, rusty
I may only own two ALFAs now, but the handle stays as I am always chasing another one.
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09-02-2004, 05:22 AM
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Greg Gordon
A Mk 1 Cortina is sort of like an Alfa. I don't see the MG comparison though. There may be historical similarities between the two companies but when you compare common enthusiast models like say a 1972 Alfa Spider and a 1972 MGB it's like they were designed on different planets. Compare the Alfa Spider to a Fiat 124 and it's like they were both designed by the same guy on the same day, just with one car having a little more money thrown into it for upscale features like forged suspension arms, chain driven cams etc.
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You don't quite get what I am talking about. I am not comparing the Spider and the B on a driveability scale or a technical scale or any thing like that. I am talking about the Spirit in which they were created.
What I was getting at about the MG B and the Spider was that both these cars were responsible for getting people hooked on Sports car than arguably any other cars. In the late forties the MG TC introduced Americans to proper Sports cars from Europe, they primed the market for Porsche, Austin Healey, ALFA etc etc etc. What the TC did in the 40's, the Spider and the B did in the 60's . In a modern context , you have to see the MX5/Miata, as the vehicle that revived the sportscar into the 21st century as we know it. Until the Mx5 came along the sportscar had become extinct in the 1980's, sure we always had exotic sportscars Porsche, ferrari, lamborgini, but the middle class sportscar non longer existed , that spot had been taken largely by Hot Hatch type machines such as the Golf GTi and what was coming out of Detroit wasn't worth mentioning.
Along comes the Mx5, copied arguably on a Lotus Elan, I remember the first one I saw. nextthing you know everyone car maker is back in the hunt to make a real sportscar ( in the true 60's spirit) again. BMW,Mercedes, Ford,Audi, Nissan,ALFA , Fiat etc etc. Even Lotus gets back into the act again with the Elsie. And then we had the revival of great names from the Past, MG and Mini are with us again. Alfa, makes a spider and a GTV again. Bentley is now making sportscars.
We have the Mx5 to thanks for all this, but there would be no Mx5 without garden variety sportscars like the MGB and the more high tech Alfa Spider.
I know I am going to put a lot of noses out of joint, but most people by now know that I am a GTV man and not a really big fan of the Spider but I would argue that even though the MGB was not as advanced as the Spider , the B is probably more of a sportscar than the Spider because the B had a full succesfull international racing career, in both sportscar racing and rallying . The spider to the best of my knowledge never really featured in Motor sport to any great depth or success. I always feel that a sports car isn't really a sports car unless it has been blooded on the track, like the MG A, and B and the 105 coupes the Mx5 and the Latest Lotus. And far as I know the Fiat Spider had no real racing career when they were new either.
I feel that I may have opened a can of worms.
Phil
__________________
Phil
1961 MGA 1600 Roadster, British Racing Green
1966 Giulia Sprint GT ,Argento
1970 1750 GTV s2, Verde Olivo Metallica (AR213)
2005 Holden Rodeo LT Crew Cab, Fox Fire Red
{Oo==V==oO}
Previously owned
1983 Ford Laser KB, Beige
1985 Volvo 360 GLT Dark Mettalic Blue
1970 GT Junior stepnose Resprayed Red, Giallo Ochre
1923 Amilcar Sports, rusty
I may only own two ALFAs now, but the handle stays as I am always chasing another one.
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09-02-2004, 06:34 AM
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I do understand your comment, but just about all the 60s sports cars were created in the same spirit. That's not enough to say MG is more similar to Alfa in design or anything else.
The Spider wasn't raced because they used the stiffer GTV body instead. That doesn't mean it has any less of a sporting heritage. We all know that the GTV is pretty much the same mechanically.
The pre WW2 cars are ancient history, I am not sure I have ever seen a pre war Alfa or MG, and I certainly have not seen one on the road. For that reason all of my comments are related to the types of cars we typical enthusiasts on this board own and drive. That means cars from about 1965 and later. During that period MGs and Alfas might as well have been designed on different planets. Other then the fact they are both sports cars they have almost nothing in common.
I will concede that during the 30s MG and Alfa may have been similar, I have no idea about that period.
Greg Gordon www.oldebottles.com scroll down to the Italian car link
82 GTV6
85 GTV6 Supercharged!
66 Fiat 600, 65hp, would like to replace with an Alfa
75 Fiat 128, worst Fiat ever but at least mine is dang fast
64 Ford 500 Truck, work truck
03 Buick Le Sabre GT, I am not kidding about the GT part
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09-02-2004, 07:31 AM
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Greg Gordon
I do understand your comment,
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Yeah ? I still don't think you do Greg.
__________________
Phil
1961 MGA 1600 Roadster, British Racing Green
1966 Giulia Sprint GT ,Argento
1970 1750 GTV s2, Verde Olivo Metallica (AR213)
2005 Holden Rodeo LT Crew Cab, Fox Fire Red
{Oo==V==oO}
Previously owned
1983 Ford Laser KB, Beige
1985 Volvo 360 GLT Dark Mettalic Blue
1970 GT Junior stepnose Resprayed Red, Giallo Ochre
1923 Amilcar Sports, rusty
I may only own two ALFAs now, but the handle stays as I am always chasing another one.
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09-02-2004, 09:51 AM
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I just finished a frame up restoration on a MGA 1500, and I must say it is much simpler to work on than my Alfa Spider. MG did have rack and pinion steering on all street cars back in the early fifties.( Pretty advanced ) The tractor engine they used was cheap to build, very durable as well as being very economical on fuel. Not as hi tech as the Alfa motor; But fine for a regular production sports car of it`s time. The MGA was a cheaper car to buy for those who maybe could not aford an Alfa. The Alfa was at a different price point. The MGA was a very important car of it`s day. It was a low cost high volume product. Production numbers are pretty high for both the A and B models. These cars were very important to Brittins economy still recovering from the war.
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Kipp
74 Spider
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09-02-2004, 07:02 PM
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This is how I see it:
Prewar ... definitely Bugatti was the competition.
Postwar and current ... definitely BMW (once they started making real cars  ).
But I can see exactly where ThreeAlfas is coming from ... why?, because my father owns a MGB.
I hated these cars with a passion until he bought one and I raced it for my first season of classic racing. While they were very different in price compared to Alfas when new ... they now are the same. Thus MGB is 100% in the same market as the Alfa Spyder ... and really was when new, Alfa just charged too much .
They have a beam rear axle ... just like an Alfa, they are actually fun to drive, perform similar (yes I was surprised) ... and you cannot kill an MGB.
I remember racing in my first race and being very, very upset when I past a 1750GTV Alfa Romeo in this MGB. I just could not believe that this heap of unsophisticated British sh!t was faster than my dream car ... ofcourse it could have been driver, but I still passed it. The strangest pass I have ever made in motor sport.
Unfortunately also those MGB pushrod motors can be tuned to produce more hp than the fancy looking Alfa twin cam ... 
So in conclusion:
MG produced simple sportscars in the 30's - Alfa Romeo produced top of the line fancy ones. Thus I cannot agree with this comparison, Alfa's were hand built mega expensive sportscars ... MG's made a few specials, but not many.
Post war, MG produces the MGA - direct competitor to the 101 Spider, and the MGB - direct competitor to the 105 Spider. Some people would have been won over by the fancy details of the Alfa Romeo ... others would have been scared of the reliability. In the end they are both fun to drive and now (as then) bought by enthusiasts.
Alfa Romeo has not really suffered the same badge engineering that MG did ... I mean Alfa Romeo was actually involved with the Arna, and there is as much Alfa in that car as Nissan. Many MG badges ended up on cars they had nothing to do with ...
Pete
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ps: Remember it's all just opinions 
'71 1750 Series 2 GTV: http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/showthread.php?p=208078
Last edited by PSk; 09-02-2004 at 07:05 PM.
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09-02-2004, 08:59 PM
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Physically, a company that has borrowed heavily from Alfa is Jaguar. Begin with the concept Disco Volante. This car was clearly the inspiration for the Jaguar E Type. Then, take a look at the 2600 from the rear. Jaguar borrowed the rear end, tail lights and all for the XJ of the 70's. Finally, look at the current S Type. The Center grille is just about as close to a rip off as you can get. Also, both look at rain and rust
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