Hard to start after running hard

[ALFA NOLA]

My car just refuses to make life easy... runs great... but after a good hard drive she is a witch to start. I jiggle the coil, take the NEW distributor cap off and check the wear & NEW rotor... there is always a bit of blue/green on the copper in the cap.

What could it be?

Also... the manual says that it's OK to depress the accelerator while starting a warmed up car... but I'm hesitant because I don't want to BLOW OFF the plenum... again!

Thoughts?

[ALFA NOLA]

C'mon guys... no suggestions?

[Matthew K]

Resistance increases when metal gets warm - the current flowing through your ignition switch while the car is running may make the contacts have higher resistance when you go to restart it. Ignition switch is a common fault in these cars, perhaps you should think about a simple ignition relay.
Otherwise the resistance of the starter or the solenoid may increase when they are hot, again making it harder to get them going. Have you made any mods which affect air circulation under the bonnet, or removed the heat shield around the starter?

[ALFA NOLA]

Thanks for your reply.
No I have not made any mods to the car... I'll look into the ignition relay. Is it a standard (IAP) type relay or aftermarket item? Or do I need a new ignition switch?

[Matthew K]

This should see you straight:

Adding a Starter Relay to an Alfa Milano

(pretty much the same setup in a GTV6).

The relay is a standard item as far as I know - pretty much any auto store should carry one, and they're pretty cheap. It will probably avoid any need for a new ignition switch, although a shot of contact cleaner into your current switch may also help.

Do check all the connections, particularly the grounds from the starter and from the engine to the body - a lot of resistance can build up in them which wastes good current. You can undo them, clean them with steel wool, do them back up tight and put a layer of vaseline to keep air / moisture out.

[ALFA NOLA]

Wow... thanks mate.

[mjr]

Hang on... before you go pulling earth straps off, buying ingniton switches and pulling starters off, what do you mean when you say hard starting? cranks a long time before starting? coughs spurts? if so, its more likley to be a fuel/air issue, than spark. my car sometimes takes a few more cranks than normal to start when really hot, or driven hard in hot weather, and its nothing to do with high resistance on the ignition switch or starter. check all of your air hoses and intake hoses first, vacum lines for small cracks etc which will open up when hot. check that your afm is adjusted correctly and your timing is good.

As for spark. first thing to check, is that you have the correct plugs fitted.

[John Brase]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALFA NOLA Also... the manual says that it's OK to depress the accelerator while starting a warmed up car... but I'm hesitant because I don't want to BLOW OFF the plenum... again! Thoughts?

[Matthew K]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mjr Hang on... before you go pulling earth straps off, buying ingniton switches and pulling starters off, what do you mean when you say hard starting? cranks a long time before starting? coughs spurts? if so, its more likley to be a fuel/air issue, than spark. my car sometimes takes a few more cranks than normal to start when really hot, or driven hard in hot weather, and its nothing to do with high resistance on the ignition switch or starter. check all of your air hoses and intake hoses first, vacum lines for small cracks etc which will open up when hot. check that your afm is adjusted correctly and your timing is good.

[ALFA NOLA]

Thanks guys, just to be clear on what I've done so far:

cleaned and tightened all grounds, cleaned, cold start switch, coil connections, new cap & rotor

She seems to fire up after I mess with the distributor cap... I take it off and lightly scrape the little metal tips... but it's NEW... so it doesn't make sense.

Also, I have Greg's silicone vacuum hoses on the car to eliminate air leaks...

Could it maybe be the coolant temp sensor?

I'd like to replace some of the blue Bosch connectors like on the Cold Start and also get a new Bosch blue coil.

To answer mjr's question... it cranks a loooong time before firing up when it's hot.

[Matthew K]

Do you have a voltmeter / multimeter? It should tell you exactly how many volts the starter is seeing when you crank it.
It still sounds like a relay might be a good option. Can't really hurt and they don't cost much.

[Gubi]

Guys: if the car is cranking fine then a starter relay and starter voltage are NOT the issue. It's generally a good idea in these cars but it is absolutely not contributing to this problem. Like mjr stated, it is most likely a fuel-air issue.

This is a reasonably common problem: my Milano sometimes does the same thing, and there's an AROC tech bulletin discussing a similar problem in GTV-6s. The explanation given in the bulletin is that the hot soak vaporizes the fuel in the lines, which forces fuel out and wets the plugs. Not sure about the plug-wetting thing, but vaporization is definitely an issue as I can hear the vapor rumbling out of the return line into the tank.

The article says to give it half throttle during starting to fix the issue. I have never tried this, as my Milano will generally start in under ten seconds and I'm nervous about blowing the plenum. But if John's above information is correct about the order to follow then it may be safe to do.

[John Brase]

Tom, I like that hot soak vaporization theory. I had not heard it before but it would explain the occasional hot-start symptoms I encounter, and would also explain why opening the throttle while cranking seems to help.

I have never blown the plenum off using the "crank first then open" method but if you need to do it and it still makes you nervous you could loosen the clamp on the intake hose at the plenum. Then if it were to "pop" it would almost certainly just pop the hose off rather than blowing the whole plenum off. That is what I did while trying to get mine running again after sitting for six or so years.

[ALFA NOLA]

Well now she won't even start when cold. I'm not getting something!

[mjr]

heres what i would do next.

you need to do some basic checks now then. to establish that you are getting fuel and spark. first basic check is to check injection relay is working. fuses and relays. and quick check of dizzy cap and rotor are good. you say you already checked all the grounds, so if above if a ok then.....

1) remove the air box, jam the AF meter valve open with a screw driver, and turn on the ignition (not start). you should hear the fuel pump buzzing away. this will prove the pump is working.

2) crank over, and either remove a plug to see if its getting wet, or remove the cold start injector, and place into a clear pot. I find that the easiest way to see that fuel is getting there.

3) if fuel is getting there, next you need to check spark. pull a plug, connect lead and have someone hold the plug near to the block or something. crank. the spark will be clear to see.you could do this for every plug. its up to you.


4) remove the Auxilary air valve, clear it out with carb cleaner. if you can, put it in the oven on a low temp for about 30 seconds. see that the valve actually changes postion as it cools down. re-connect. check all air hoses for cracks or holes whilst you have the filter housing off. make sure vacum line has not fallen off, its easy to knock it off when fumbling about in there.

if at this point it still wont start, and you have fuel and spark. then fuel/air mixture is most likely the issue, since you haven't changed ignition timing or anything I presume??. it would be good if you have a fuel pressure gauge to check the fuel pressure at this point too. 35 odd psi I think for gtv6 (double check, as I cant remember 100%). this will prove fuel pressure regulator is good.



try crank again. if no go

b) coolant temp sensor is the next thing to check.

if still no joy after that. then you are next into swapping ecu, AFM, checking injectors territory.