Blown headgasket controversy revisited and mystery

[salamandrrr]

Hello All,

I've got '84 GTV6 with 39K miles that had the original head gaskets replaced at a garage about 15 years ago (prolly at about 20K miles). About 10 years ago, the clutch master went out and the owner abandoned it in his back yard, which is in Norcal, never started it and never moved it. Last summer, I got the car running, but did not torque block to head fasteners or do anything to heads. I did do an oil change, rebuilt and cleaned injectors, put on new fuel pump, replaced gas tank to fuel pump hose etc. Car drove for about 5K miles up until a month ago, and now I have frothy milkshake coolant. Prior to blowing headgasket, I also noticed it was burning a lot of oil, and I took a brief look that it was leaking and burning in the engine compartment and causing white smoke. I am pretty sure I didn't overheat it and I never drove it hard at all. There was probably more water than coolant in radiator.

1. Theory #1 to blown headgasket is that maybe the garage forgot to take off the aluminum rings on piston liners when they put on single piece headgasket. I'll find this out when I take motor apart, but that would be a really stupid mistake by that garage.

2. Theory #2 is that they put on a bikini head gasket, really? In or around 1993?

3. Theory #3 is that the head is not flat or warped. Okay, but how? I didn't overheat?

4. Theory #4, I heard about this metal tube fix where a "brass dowell" or mild steel tube about 3 inches long is placed in a hole in the block and it fits into a hole in the head, but the hole in the head needs to be machined to fit. This then allows the ~90 psi of oil pressure to be confined to a metal tube, and takes away this sealing job from the head gasket. This fix is supposedly going to fix things so I'll never have to replace a head gasket ever again. By the way, I'm not describing or doing the Shankle Tube solution which is exterior to the motor, but I read about it.

Questions:

(i). Is it true that later model year GTV6's and Milano's had this internal motor tube solution put in at the factory, that's what I heard?

(ii). Has anyone put in these tubes on a GTV6 and does it work, meaning make head gaskets last longer than 10K miles?

(iii). Is it important that these tubes seal really well into block and head, meaning a tight press fit into a reamed hole? Or is a loose fit okay too?

(iv). Where is this hole in block and head btw?

So the biggest question I have is that if we assume a one piece headgasket set was put on the car 15 years ago, and since these were better quality than bikini style, how could this headgasket set fail? The only explanation is that these "brass dowell" rods are crucial to making the headgasket last a long time. I'm looking for people that have done this job to weigh in with their experiences and advice.

My plan is to buy a headset and replace everything it comes with. I'm going to buy Victor-Reinz headgaskets. I'm going to get a head vacuum test done and follow their advice on if I need a valve job done. I'll ask them to ream out hole in head if "brass dowell" is a good solution. I'll ask them to verify the flatness of my heads. I guess I'll check flatness of block with a straight edge.

The T-belt tensioner was replaced at ~20K miles.

Question: What else should I replace: T-belt tensioner, T-belt, water pump, cam seals, anything else?

Question: I heard that if I need new valve guide seals, when you press them into their holes, they get crooked and warped. So you have to hone the inside of them NOT ream them. A good machine shop should know this. Does this sound correct?

Question: I heard that I should check the torque of the fasteners before removing them, since it is a way to know if the head fasteners were not at the specified torques. Sounds like a good idea to me?

Question: What liquid or method do I use to remove the old headgasket?

Any other comments, advice, and tips would be greatly appreciated. I hope the description in auto manual is good enough to follow.

Thanks in advance for reading this far and responding,
Sal in Norcal

[salamandrrr]

I found a Goertz "factory" headset which is pricy, but apparently is the last one available. It is a brown "tacky" material. Can anybody weigh in if Goertz is the best brand out there, even better than Victor-Reinz? My desire is to do this job right, so I don't have to do it again for a long time.

Thanks in advance,
Sal in Norcal

[SamW]

I did about 3 sets of head gasket jobs on various 2.5 l V6s about three year ago, my suggestion is to get head gaskets from either IAP or Centerline. I bought one from another supplier and it ended up being defective do to the holes for head studs not lining up with the head studs, plus it looked a lot less quality than the ones from the suppliers above. I believe the other fix you talk about is the roll pin, I can't really offer too much help on this other than to let you know I did/helped with the replacement of the original 2 piece headgaskets on two different engines, one a pre '86 GTV6 engine and the other a Milano engine, but I did not do anything other than replace the headgaskets and both have been fine since. One thing about the 2 piece headgasket, it was not the design that sucked, it was the material that they used for the non-compression seal, it just did not hold up. For an engine that sat unused for 10 years, I am not suprised about the oil usage or the failed headgasket, I can see that time letting the valve guide seals dry-rot and also the headgasket material.

I think you are on the right track to replace the seals and the headgasket. The T-belt and tensioner is a good idea, never really been comfortable with a used belt once removed and they are pretty cheap. Might consider the front main seal, and you also have a cam seal under the distributor drive, so get three cam seals.

Other things to think about;

Fuel lines
intake couplers (I really like Greg's, but pricey compared to originals)
Use a brake hone to clean up intake runners (cast marks and welds)
Heater hoses (the molded ones in the back of the engine)
rubber brake lines (they can go bad and lock up calipers) (not really related to engine work, just a good idea)

I am sure I am missing something, but others will chime in.

[DaveH]

Hiya Sal.

You asked about what to use to remove the headgasket: IIRC, on mine it came off quite cleanly (2 piece). We cleaned up the residue with Simple Green. I'd steer clear of the headgasket scrapers. I would be afraid of marring the aluminum surface with such a tool.

While you're taking things apart, replace the thermostat along with all those other items SamW mentioned.

The break-free torque check may work. BUT: seized bolts can give you a false reading.

The heater hoses SamW mentioned changed specs over the years, depending on vintage. There is some confusion about this. Perhaps Centerline or IAP can advise you further?

What else to change.... Well, all the coolant hoses.

Brass dowell? I have not heard that one before.

[GVVGTV6]

You know for the first 80K miles on my 1983 v6 I was always paranoid about the head gasket thing after having read about it as an "issue" ... at about 110K miles I had the heads pulled not because of gaskets but for a valve job!

Now an engine that has sat for so long like yours is probably just asking for it, but don't get all worked up on this head gasket thing - Get a quality gasket set (like from IAP or Alfa Parts) and don't waste your time with all this nonsense of brass tubes, Shankle bypass, etc. Of course make sure the heads get re-torqued after initial break-in.

GV

[Balocco211]

Here are some oldies but goodies on the Technical Service Bulletins on gasket and oil pins.

[salamandrrr]

Hello,

I finally got the heads off, but found this coiled metal in the oil high pressure holes, any idea what it is? Can I remove it to make room for the oil pins?

Thanks,
Sal in Norcal

[Balocco211]

IMHO - it looks like the "outer coil" is the original roll pin. The "inner coil" looks like a pin that was used instead of the recommended tapered pin (alfa part number 0060743807).

See if you can remove the "inner pin" and keep the outer pin as a support for the new tapered pin. In unable to save "outer coil" then pick up both tapered pin above and (roll pin p/n 0013912670). I haven't checked in a while and don't know if the parts are NLA. You have good resoures in your area. Alfa Parts should be able to assist.

Cheers,

[brookstroutr]

Balocco211,

Good info as I'm getting ready, hopefully, to do my Verde 3.0 rebuild/swap soon. BTW, is the Alfa Romeo Technical contact phone number still good???? Kiddin' here.

[Balocco211]

LOL

go down the the basement and breakout the rotodial phone for that call.

[brookstroutr]

No basements here in Flour-eye-duhhh. Guess I'll have to go out and dig one a rotary out of the old Alfalfa boot.... Period correct, doncha know... Remember when there were payphones and for a nickel. "Remember when sex was safe and Racing was dangerous??"

[salamandrrr]

Balocco and other oil pin experts,

From your PDF for 1984 GTV6, it recommends Roll Pin and Tapered Pin . Attached photo shows what I bought 3 months ago: it looks like I have Stepped Pin and Grooved Pin.

Following your advice, if I can pull out the curved inner pin and leave the Old Roll Pin, will the Stepped Pin work for 1984 GTV6 even though it is only recommended for 1986 GTV6, as per your PDF document? Does the Old Roll Pin keep the Stepped Pin at the right height even when pressing on head to block?

Should I go with the Grooved Pin even though it only recommends it on Milano cars? I'd have to drill out either head or block to make this work for me. Is the O-ring version better because it has an O-ring?

Or should I keep looking around for the Alfa recommended Tapered Pin?

Thanks,
Sal in Norcal

[tomgtv6]

The roll pin engineering is left over from the early 2l spiders. They originally has nothing, and the head gaskets leaked. They went through a couple of fixes and settled on the roll pin. As long as it sticks up enough to slightly contact the head, but not too much it should be ok. Both types you have look like improvements, but I think the o ring has to be there on either.

[salamandrrr]

Thanks for the o-ring advice, I didn't know it should be used even for my straight oil pin. But is the thickness of o-ring about same as headgasket? I'm wondering if o-ring gets squashed between head and block and can that compromise oil sealing function? Or did Alfa already do the testing and this is the recommended fix?

Thx, Sal in Norcal

[tomgtv6]

All the ones I have changed, the head gasket hole was made for the o ring. The o ring or the tube is not enough by themselves they work hand in hand. Someone use to make a kit that blocked the holes and rerouted the oil through a braided line externaly into the head for racing use, but I have never had a v6 gasket leak. The 4s leak all the time.