Very hard starting, no power

[GreyGTV6]

My GTV6 was sort-of my daily driver in Canada with few problems. After my move to the UK and parking the car for 18 months it became harder to start. Now after being stored outside for that time I have battled for the last 6 months to get the thing started. I'm at the point of getting some marshmallows and toasting them on an open Alfa fire.

Things I've done include plugs, hoses where required, checking fuel injectors, fuel pressure, and Greg Gordons procedure more times than I can remember. I've not checked ignition timing or valve timing. But as I drove the car to it's parking now I feel they should be ok.

Symptoms are, the only way I can get it to fire up (if ever) are with part throttle and once it fires leave the gas pedal alone. Most times it takes about 30 minutes cranking on the starter before it will fire up. But other times it is pretty stubborn and sits and looks at me. After a VERY rough idle it has to be coaxed to rev up or it will stall. If I try drive it once warm it doesn't have the power to pull the skin off a rice pudding, let alone drive it normally. Coughs, splutters and f@rts and is undrivable for more than 100 meters. The starting is the same when warm or cold. Once or twice it has run ok, but not for more than a minute. Then it's back to coughing and spluttering.

Any ideas, or should I go buy a box of matches and marshmallows?

[oldschooleuros]

Check the following:
fuel filter
Air meter
vac leaks
check compression
Good places to start

[fetta78]

You may want to check if you blew the plenum off!
It could be leaking air through the little rubber pieces under the plenum...

Is the gas 18 months old? If so, drain the gas and put in a fresh couple of gallons.

.

[Chsmadden]

This sometimes happens on my Mercedes, try using some fuel system cleaner on each tank of gas, that is if you can get it to the gas station, does it have a full tank of gas? If not the fuel must have gone bad, and the injectors might not be working properly now. Just try some fuel injector cleaner, I've found that the Redline brand stuff is the best, hasn't worked on my Mercedes though, .

[Grant]

I've had my Verde run on 7 year old gas when I first drove it to my house. I don't think old gas will actually cause the car to not start.

I would second checking the fuel filter, and also the coil lead! At least two of my Alfas have given me trouble because the coil lead became loose.

[GreyGTV6]

Sorry, it was impossible to remember at time of posting all the stuff I have done over the last 6 months. One of the first was to replace the fuel and used it in my new daily driver with no problems. The plenum has blown several times but the connector pipes are perfect as I've removed them several times. The fuel filter is not a bad idea but the flow is strong. Greg's procedure recommends 1 gallon through the cold start injector in 2 minutes, and mine does it in 90 seconds. Injectors were checked by removing plenum with air hoses etc, removing injectors with fuel rail and connecting both parts together. With it lying on its back on top of the motor each injector sprayed about 1 foot into the air. Looks cool to watch them in action.

The coil does not sound a bad place to check either. I've become so bogged down with air system (old pipes, leaks) that I've assumed spark is ok. Will try a new coil next. the compression does bother me but it was my daily driver with no problems so I can't really see what could go wrong with parking it. Electrical connections have caused huge headaches with lights merely through standing in a damp UK

Symptoms are similar to when I wrecked my previous AFM with a power washer. Will try shop around for another.

Thanks for the input, I will keep you updated after the weekend.

[Chsmadden]

Here's an idea I didn't have yesterday, go get a new wire set, cap, rotor, plugs, and a coil, then drain all of the gas from the tank, and crank the engine over with the injectors removed to dry the system out, unless it's a SPICA system, which I doubt. Then fill the tank to full with fresh gas,(don't forget the fuel system cleaner). To prime the system(this has always worked for me)turn the key to ON, don't touch any pedals, then wait three seconds, turn the key to LOCK, then switch it back to ON, three seconds, LOCK, ON, three seconds, then START, it should fire within ten seconds, but most likely right away. Hey, it's worth a try

[91spiderNV]

If you're speaking with Greg Gordon, email him about his starter kit he used to sell. I bought Greg's car with the kit installed, pretty easy setup. What happens is the cold start injector sends too much fuel and floods the engine. What Greg did is disconnect the automatic cold start and replaced it with a manual push button cold start that gives the engine the right amount of fuel to start up. Turn the key, push the cold start fuel button until the car starts. Starts up first time every time on 10 degree days.

Email Greg for more info on his system. You'll never do without again. It's a pretty simple system.

[S. Harris]

I had similar starting problems with my '86 GTV6 (in the 80's when I owned it). It would be a little hard to start after sitting for a few weeks and then when I tried to start it I would give into the temptation of giving it gas with the pedal. Well, I compounded the problem by doing this. The cylinders and heads became quickly flooded in gas and stayed that way. They wouldn't dry off and I didn't realize this was the problem until an Alfa Mechanic showed me and said this was typical. His advice: don't touch the throttle when starting, it should have enough gas with the injectors -- and don't let it sit for more than a week without starting it.

[gt601]

You may want to check that the timing belt has not slipped a tooth or more and also make sure the dizzy has not turned any. I have seen the clamp for the diz come loose and when you go to start it after sitting the diz shaft will seize enough to turn the housing and put her out of time.
Just a thought. Good luck.

Paul

[ToonRboy]

Weird, what you described sounded like a clogged in-tank screen on the pickup, or a stuck injector (or two)...

But since you know the aux Injector is functioning and the other six as well, the problem must be spark. As remote as a change in timing on the cams would be, I'd verify to be sure. If timing has changed, most likely at dizzy. If you've been getting a lot of moisture or rain, you might check to make sure the ECU isn't getting wet. If you've flooded the engine, replace the plugs.

I would check to make sure the thermo-time is shutting off the aux injector after the prescribed time, or if it's leaking.

If the engine was running fine before you put her down, you have to look at the likely culprits. Good luck man, damn shameful you can't disturb the peace down in the countryside over there.

[GreyGTV6]

I bought a coil today that I will fit tomorrow and will let you know. First thing I found today was the small pipe near the front of the plenum running down to the injector rail was cracked. After replacing the pipe it fired and had the long lost exhaust crackle that develops at around 3000 rpm. I was over the moon and took it for an illegal blast around the block running almost well. It soon started bucking like hell and cut out just before I got back home. After that, no start. Nothing I did could get it to fire up. So with temps here in the UK dropping to 0 deg I parked it for the day and downed a few to drown my sorrows over a bbq. Us SA people will bbq in any weather. It will be dragged to a local Alfa expert I have found if I can't resolve it tomorrow.

Thanks for all the suggestions and input.

[GreyGTV6]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ToonRboy I would check to make sure the thermo-time is shutting off the aux injector after the prescribed time, or if it's leaking.

[ToonRboy]

I bet when your mechanic tells you the problem, you're gonna kick yourself. Hopefully, not to the chagrin of your wallet. That "small pipe near the front of the plenum running down to the injector rail" I believe to be the vacuum to the FPR.

I think part of the key to your problem is that "The plenum has blown several times". Now you're having no-start issues. It would seem that you've definitely eliminated fuel starvation as a problem. Now you just need spark - at the right time. You'll figure it out. I've been told (on my Volvo 164E and the Alfa's) not to check spark by grounding plugs to the engine (supposedly might toast your ECU). But I have pulled the plug boot back, and cupping one hand and looking in the well, see & hear the plug firing (or not).

If I were you, I'd put a cover on it, & exercise my right to smoke cigarettes and drink pints in a nice warm pub.
...'least till the temps break 50*

[GreyGTV6]

I'm really at the end of my patience and tired of working in 4 deg temps on this thing. I'm sure you are right that I will kick myself when the mechanic tells me what a simpleton I am. But hey, if it is something small it means I might have a bit left in my wallet for a beer or two. As for smokes, I leave that to the mugs and enjoy watching them freezing their buts off in the cold rain outside after years of making my life hell in bars and clubs. Allright I'll get down off my soapbox now! Sorry, you may be a smoker.

I've pulled all the plug leads off and will hopefully match them up, or remake new leads if I can find the correct wire. I'm so focussed on the plenum/air leaks thing that I am blind to the actual problem. Strange thing is no matter what I do the symptoms have not really changed that much, except it is getting worse.

As for blowing the ecu, I have my doubts that it could be easily done. Its old generation electronics and really robust. Integrated circuits can't take much surge or stress, but resistors, diodes and transistors that the ECU mainly comprises can take a fair amount of abuse.