02-05-2008, 12:01 PM
|
|
Registered User
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 463
|
|
|
Yes, as I mentioned the Group A racers used the original tensioner. A friend of mine has such a car with a dynoed 2.5 engine to 250 Hp. At some point we will take out the engine and I will make a photo for you R.J.
Nice that you chimed in Jim K.
Since the Mahle pistons were mentioned, another friend installed a set of these. Original Gr. A pistons, very nice product! I include a couple photos.
I have nothing against fixed tensioners, as I know them from other engines. like the Fiat TC. However they have their shortcomings as they donīt take up slack automatically. On a racer its no problem since the belt is frequently changed.
|
02-05-2008, 07:43 PM
|
|
Registered User
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 412
|
|
|
Hmmm, I could swear these are GTAm pistons! I have a pic of the 2.5 Mahle, will post this afternoon.
Re. cams, AR only made 3 sets of cams for the V6. The first were p/n 119000320025 and 1190003200125, later renamed to 60523305 and 60523306 (some were also used in early gtv6's), the L-Jet 60534722 and 60534723 and finally the 60548163 and 60548164. The first were specified as intake lift of 9.0mm, the second as 9.1mm and the last as 10.1mm (mostly everywhere except the revised 164 spec book as a true 10.4mm). Any other spec cams would come as a surprise to me and would be a big black hole in Alfa technical literature!
Jim K.
|
02-05-2008, 07:58 PM
|
|
Registered User
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: SF Gay Area
Posts: 1,644
|
|
|
Jim,
Did you check out the 916/917 Spider SOHC 3.0 V6 cams? Squadra Tuning told me that these were different from the S/Potenziato cams. He installed it in one of his customer's car and created a custom chip for it with good result.
__________________
1987 75 1.6ie
Mods so far: 185/65/14 Nankang HR Tires
|
02-06-2008, 07:35 AM
|
 |
Richard Jemison
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Pensacola, Fl. U.S.A.
Posts: 839
|
|
|
More on cam #s
 Quote:
|
Richard, is it cam design or high RPM that kills the early rockers? In other words, on a forced induction engine with stock cams will they be OK at 7500rpm?
|
Greg,The ramp rate on the factory exhaust cam is very soft. I dare say 8ooo RPM won`t be an issue. After discarding the C&B and Cat cams tried in the early days, the ramp I used with the early rockers was faster but I held lift to a reasonable amount and the ramp lift was softer leading into a fairly fast early flank.
Jim K,
I agree with the # published for V6 cams, but there are more than 3.
I think Alfa didn`t always keep up with # & spec changes, particularly with USA delivered cars. Automatic vs. Std. Calif. Vs. Rest of Country.
I have had two sets of "S" cams marked 119xxxxxx3031 & 3033. Both sets measured lift of .378-.380 (9.7mm+-) and had lobe separation angles of 111.25. (from the cam doctor not my profiling or in motor measurements)
Both sets were profiled & were within a degree or so duration) With wear issues taken into consideration along with the duration at .050 I would
establish these as worn "S" cams ( but not so much wear was visually evident as would be expected to have reduced lift from 10.1). But the lobe separation angle (wear not issue here) indicates a cam with LCs of more than 110.5/108.5 (which is a 109 lobe sep. angle). This would reflect a cam design for more emission friendly & low end RPM biased performance level.
Any Clues??
__________________
Richard Jemison
RJR Racing
http://scuderiagiallo.com
"you don`t have to listen, but you won`t win the argument"!
"Nothing that I might suggest will be legal in California"
|
02-06-2008, 08:05 AM
|
|
Registered User
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 412
|
|
|
Evo, those last V6 Spiders had cams p/n 60603785 and 60603786. I don't have any specs on those, but seeing the made 192hp with a cat and 10:1CR, (engine # AR16101) I believe they were inferior to the 164Q cams, where the engine made 200hp with 10:1 and cat.
Richard, for the record, there were 4 more V6 (12v) cam part numbers, used in special 164 versions like the Brasil-bound cars and the tropical weather versions, but these were of no use to performance seekers. The 119xxx is the ancient AR numbering system used before 1989 or thereabouts and then translated/superseded by the new numbering system (remember the 119 series cars back then, most of the parts started with 119...) Strange you should mention the 3031 and 3033 numbers! These numbers alone (no 119 or anything else) exist with raised metal on the body of my cams, both pairs! Maybe I can take a closeup pic and post. I will look for the p/n you mention and see what I find.
As far as the 10.4mm cams, the CD's and Microfiches show they were also used in US 164's from '91-'93 (besides Motronic 75's and SZ/RZ)with engine # ARO64301. This engine was badged as 'USA 83' (an emissions classification) and was sold in Europe also.
Re. race V6 pistons, here's a pic of the 'right stuff' which I hope will be available again in an improved shape nontheless.
Jim K.
|
02-06-2008, 08:21 AM
|
 |
Registered User
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 489
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim K.
Re. cams, AR only made 3 sets of cams for the V6. ... Any other spec cams would come as a surprise to me and would be a big black hole in Alfa technical literature!
|
Karl
__________________
[B]Have:[/B] 1969 1750 GTV under restoration
1969 1750 Berlina
1968 Giulia Sprint GTV (very rough, no motor)
[B]Had:[/B] 1982 GTV6 3.0 w/4.10 rear, Stebro (imported engine from UK in 2002) -- Rear-ended 8/2004.
1988 Milano Verde
[B]Non-Alfas:[/B]1984 Volvo 244
|
02-06-2008, 08:33 AM
|
|
Registered User
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 412
|
|
|
Just took a pic of the 10.4mm cams to show the raised numbers.
As for the other 119.... p/n I'll have an answer tomorrow as I have the old microfiches at the office.
Karl, there were instances where European and US engine versions were identical, especially after 1991 and more so with the 24v models.
Jim K.
|
02-06-2008, 08:59 AM
|
 |
OO≡≡≡<°>≡≡≡OO
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 773
|
|
|
Fantastic thread!
It's great to see such information collected in one place.
Now if only more Italians spoke English, we'd surely have an ex-AR (or Autodelta) employee or 2 chiming in.
__________________
'85 GTV6
|
02-06-2008, 09:28 AM
|
|
Registered User
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 489
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveH
Now if only more Italians spoke English, we'd surely have an ex-AR (or Autodelta) employee or 2 chiming in.
|
__________________
[B]Have:[/B] 1969 1750 GTV under restoration
1969 1750 Berlina
1968 Giulia Sprint GTV (very rough, no motor)
[B]Had:[/B] 1982 GTV6 3.0 w/4.10 rear, Stebro (imported engine from UK in 2002) -- Rear-ended 8/2004.
1988 Milano Verde
[B]Non-Alfas:[/B]1984 Volvo 244
|
02-06-2008, 09:29 AM
|
|
Richard Jemison
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Pensacola, Fl. U.S.A.
Posts: 839
|
|
|
USA 3031/3033 cams
[QUOTE
Jim K. Just took a pic of the 10.4mm cams to show the raised numbers.
][/quote]
Jim,
These have the same markings, intresting lift difference, but the difference is definately not wear as they were sitll "pointy) but normally round. Duration was squirley as well. But close to "S". (233.65 X 235 at .050) however exhaust a bit farther off from stock USA 9.1 lift cams. The lobe is a faster lift with less duration initially with much more upper duration??? See below:
STD exh VS. 3033/31
.010 268 248
.020 229 225
.040 210 208
.050 203 201
.080 183 184
.100 168 172
.150 127 139
.200 75 99
.250 7 15
A lot of this is absense of QC by the subs I fear as rarely have I found any cams matching duration/lift #`s between those with the same part numbers.
__________________
Richard Jemison
RJR Racing
http://scuderiagiallo.com
"you don`t have to listen, but you won`t win the argument"!
"Nothing that I might suggest will be legal in California"
Last edited by Alfar7; 02-06-2008 at 02:44 PM.
|
02-06-2008, 09:35 AM
|
|
OO≡≡≡<°>≡≡≡OO
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 773
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by karmat
Maybe we should all learn Italian. |
Apologies for this misjudgment. Please don't let it phase you 
Back on topic...
__________________
'85 GTV6
|
02-06-2008, 09:48 AM
|
|
Registered User
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 412
|
|
|
These 10.4mm jobs have 230* at .050" intake.
Exhaust valve lift is 9.16mm with 226* at .050". Factory spec duration is 287* IN/277* EX. (33-74-67-30) At this point I'm starting to wonder what the hell an 'S' cam really is!!
Jim K.
|
02-06-2008, 09:57 AM
|
|
Registered User
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 489
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by ToonRboy
There's been discussion about the revving characteristics and sound differences between the 2.5 and 3.0 12V motors. Some of this might be due to the displacement differences, but I think it's mostly due to the cam and final drive differences. (slap 2.5L cams and a 4.10 in there and I bet the 3.0 will rev like the 2.5!)
I've owned both and and prefer the 3.0 12v in the Verde. Though, with the Platinum 4.10 it would be something off the line! On the other hand, It's more relaxed on the highway.
|
Yep, I had that setup. 2.5 cams in the 3.0L with a 4.10 rear-end in my old 1982. That sucker was seriously quick off the line. It was working hard on the highway and that combined with the Stebro was a bit too loud for cruising. Still I ran it from Ohio to New Hampshire doing about 30mpg. As I pointed out earlier, the US 1982 2.5 cams also had higher lift than the UK 1989 3.0L ones... I didn't know enough to get any further information than that but I figured I'd try it out. Revved and sounded almost like the 2.5.
Karl
__________________
[B]Have:[/B] 1969 1750 GTV under restoration
1969 1750 Berlina
1968 Giulia Sprint GTV (very rough, no motor)
[B]Had:[/B] 1982 GTV6 3.0 w/4.10 rear, Stebro (imported engine from UK in 2002) -- Rear-ended 8/2004.
1988 Milano Verde
[B]Non-Alfas:[/B]1984 Volvo 244
|
02-06-2008, 09:59 AM
|
|
Registered User
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 489
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveH
Apologies for this misjudgment. Please don't let it phase you |
__________________
[B]Have:[/B] 1969 1750 GTV under restoration
1969 1750 Berlina
1968 Giulia Sprint GTV (very rough, no motor)
[B]Had:[/B] 1982 GTV6 3.0 w/4.10 rear, Stebro (imported engine from UK in 2002) -- Rear-ended 8/2004.
1988 Milano Verde
[B]Non-Alfas:[/B]1984 Volvo 244
|
02-06-2008, 10:44 AM
|
 |
Registered User
|
|
Join Date: May 2004
Location: San Jose, California
Posts: 2,487
|
|
|
For me, it doesn't matter what the final drive is. The 2.5 liter sounds very shrill and awesome, even when revving in neutral, where as the 3.0 is more masculine and gruff. That doesn't have anything to do with how quick one car accelerates when compared to another.
I prefer the sound of the 2.5 every time, but the 3.0 is much quicker. What to do?
__________________
1987 Milano Platinum - check for many new items. [B][COLOR="Red"][URL="http://alfabb.com/bb/forums/showthread.php?t=42980"]PARTING OUT[/URL][/COLOR][/B]
1989 Verde - Harsh shocks and SS rears, 27mm torsion bars, stainless lines, pads, 16X7.5 rims, 4.10 rebuilt platinum tranny, poly bushes, and RSR 28mm front and 25.4mm adjustable sways!
1984 GTV-6 - 80K miles
|
|
