GTV6 Designer

[sfalfa]

Yes -the Khamsin is a Gandini design - I didn't mean to convey it was Giugiaro's. I meant just that it encapsulated that style to perfection (IMO).

[wonderbrad]

I would have to agree with your assessment. The Khamsin is up there with the Mangusta in my book as one the best designs of the early 70s (which is really the late 60s). That glass tailgate with the floating tail lamps is genius.

[planetmojo]

Motorcity, where did you study car design: Art Center, Cranbrook, Center for Creative Studies, other... ?

I should take this opp to defend my earlier comments, and at least reduce the ridicule I seem to have asked for :- )

Two topics: FWD and NASCAR...

Topic #1, NASCAR: I threw NASCAR race vehicles in to help make a point. I could have used Formula 1 cars, or nearly any other racing sanction. The topic was FWD, and that if FWD was the best layout for a performance car, then why aren't there any F1 cars, NASCAR chassis, or any other race vehicles with FWD? The only FWD vehicles racing near me are ice racers (spiked tires on a frozen lake).

I should have said: racing cars IN GENERAL. I selected NASCAR to make my point, as the track versions that Ford, Chevy, Toyota, and Dodge bring to race are all suppose to at least imitate their production vehicles, visually. Those cars are all FWD on the showroom floor, and RWD on the track.

I am not, BTW, a NASCAR fan... just using that to make my point. It's true, they do only turn left and go around in a circle. Not nearly as exciting as most varieties of road racing, where every corner is different in radius and direction. I suppose the reason for that is: track layout. If you are at a road race course, you get to watch what happens in corner 3 as the cars go by you, and not see what's happening elsewhere on the track. In NASCAR, they can stuff 10s of thousands of paying fans in something similar to a football arena. The spectators sit in their seats and watch the entire race without turning their heads. So they can see every car on the entire track for the entire race. 500 laps of watching all 43 cars going around in a circle is more than I can find time for. So, to summarize; I think the operative words above on NASCAR are: Paying customers! Imagine what the take at the gate is for those huge arenas. Times nearly every weekend. So, before we start thinking I'm praising NASCAR for any reason... just using it as an example to make a point.

Awhile back, one of the sports magazines decided to get a fresh viewpoint on an old sport. So they selected a writer that usually handles golf, tennis, and some of the more gentile sports. They asked him to write an article on the next race for NASCAR. His article started... As someone new to this sport, I couldn't help notice that there are two very distinct types of NASCAR fans. Bare-chested, beer-drinking, toothless, foul-mouthed, hillbillies............... And their husbands!

Topic #2, FWD: Hopefully I didn't offend anyone too badly by dismissing FWD chassis layouts as not befitting a sports car. My first car was an Austin Mini, and I've owned an Olds Toronado in past years. So I've kind of seen both ends of the FWD spectrum. There is a special art to driving a FWD car skillfully, and the same goes for RWD. I don't race, but I do feel comfortable with my RWD skills. I'd have to learn to drive all over again, if I switched to FWD. On the Toronado; it had a 425 ci engine, with 375 HP. GM employed some serious internal limiters in the torque converter, as they understood that if you smoke your front tires (the ones you use to steer with) and lose traction... there would be a bunch of Luxoliners plowing corn. I did think the Mini was fun, and even saw some Minis dust Corvettes and Cobras thru the cones in a Gymkana. But I still stick to my guns--- under steer, torque steer, HP limitations, etc. can make for a sporty car, but not a sports car. The Lotus may have come the closest to proving that that statement may not be 100% true.

I'm too happy putting my foot into it on a twisty mountain road, and applying some butt english to get the tail end to wash out a bit, to ever feel the need to sing the praises of FWD. OK, I'll brace myself... go ahead and rip me apart now.

[alfavirusnz]

planetmojo, whilst there is limitations on the hp you can successfully put through wheels that both steer and transmit power and still make a "nice car" the reality is there are some extremely quick and satisfying road cars that even have a bias towards oversteer as the designed handling trait. FWD does not always equal plough on understeer or horrible steering. Unfortunately in the USA you miss and have missed some fantastic cars. The Alfasud was one with razor sharp steering and a chassis that was biased towards oversteer in a very stable communicative way. Think that because it was small engined it wasn`t effective or not a "mans car"? think again. Some very effective road and racing cars have been FWD.
I had a mildly modified `81 Alfasud Ti which I owned since new at the same time I had my`87 Ferrari Testarossa, and my GTV6 and have a favourite test route behind and around our airport. Guess which was the 2nd quickest around the route because of power to weight, it`s low mass and weight (890kg plus driver) and its agility and handling. To say this FWD chassis was not a true sporting chassis is denying reality as is to deny that a 205 GTi Peugeot or a Lancia Fulvia to name 2 other superb FWD chassis were not sporting and highly effective against almost anything.
Minis were able to compete with the GTA Juniors on the track in their day more than successfully and if you don`t think FWD makes for a good racing car have a look a some classes both classic and present day classes-a lot of the Alfa classic categories are dominated by FWD where RWD Alfas also take part-it all depends on what you are competing with, but you are correct the huge horsepower all out categories such as F1 prefer RWD. You`ve been too general and maybe influenced by those US market products.

[MotorCityDuetto]

planetmojo: I went to Arts and Crafts and Wayne State (shortly after, A & C became Center for Creative Studies).

Dave

[planetmojo]

Thanks MotorCity. The Center for Creative Studies gets very high marks. Kudos! I help teach a design class on the side at the local university. We teamed our class up with a large ID school (won't say which) for a couple of years. In looking over the portfolios of the graduating ID students there, I thought to myself: Their 4 year portfolios look like what students at Art Center had after 2 semesters. Very disappointing. But I've always been impressed with what I've seen come out of your alma mater.

On the much discussed GTV6 hood bulge... my 2 best friends from Art Center became the Head of Design at FIAT/ALFA/Lancia. One succeeding the other. But their terms there would have been after the Alfetta Coupe and GTV6 were born. Otherwise, with a quick e-mail, I could get to the bottom of that mystery.

ALFAvirus: You are correct. I probably haven't tasted a proper FWD to discover the ones that do exhibit performance characteristics. Please consider that a broad generalization, and not a universal truth! And you're also correct that, other than the Lotus, few or none ever arrived on these shores. Hopefully you've understood that my statements were made as opinions, and prefaced by "from my experience". And not being stated as hard fact. Again, I'd have to learn to drive all over again if I were to switch to FWD or AWD.

My first car was a Mini, so I understand how effective they can be in a short, very tight course against purer performance models. I also appreciate weight to HP factors. In my youth, I had a Lotus Europa with the anemic Renault 4. And in another corner of the garage, a supercharged Olds V8 (the same V8 that GM sold to Rover). 215 ci, with 215 HP! Aluminum block/ aluminum heads. Very light. And if it went into a mid-engined car, the extra few pounds probably wouldn't have disturbed the weigh bias enough to comment on. I had dreamed of joining the two, to make an (what I may have considered) amazing performance car. Never happened tho. I sold everything I owned to put myself thru design school (cottage, furniture, Europa, V8, hang glider, etc.). Kept my Ducati tho... could get rid of that, now could I?

BTW, point taken! I appreciate your input.

[planetmojo]

Since my comments on FWD and NASCAR seemed to have started a rather heated debate... I'll remind myself that the reasons these topics were broached, was this:

When ALFA was absorbed by FIAT, and ALFAs all quickly became FWD... many Alfisti in the US felt abandoned and back-stabbed. We got the 164, which was probably the best handling FWD sedan available here, before FIAT/ALFA pulled the plug on the US. Nice car, but that's not what most ALFA fans here expect of an ALFA. Many saw the FWD models as Italian Saabs. We have plenty of cars here that nearly fit that description. So do we really need another? We have very few options in the US, if our tastes lean toward: GTV6s, Montreals, Milanos, Spiders, and such.

I thought it might be valuable to recall what my original point was. FWD and NASCAR were only small details in illustrating a point. The main point was this: that many US ALFA buyers felt that they had been sold out, when ALFA abandoned the reasons we cherished these rides.

[alfavirusnz]

Fact of the matter is ordinary new cars are now so good whereas Alfa Romeos when first introduced as new models, right up through the intro of the 116`s were in technology(engineering layout,materials) performance, handling and ...wait for it......build quality on a different plane to run of the mill cars of the `60`s, `70`s.
The world caught up and Alfa, with no money for development, stood still.
The only thing new Alfas offer is (subjective) cutting edge style over their competitors. They are not any worse, or unfortunately any better. Despite being an Alfa enthusiast apart from the 6C (maybe) there is nothing that would tempt me in their current lineup.
Survival and commercial reality compromised the Alfa feel and philosophy, so don`t feel sold out "thems just the facts of life."

[planetmojo]

I agree whole-heartedly. The reasons I ended up in the ALFA camp were: styling, low cost of entry, driver ergonomics, and cornering. I have a medium-sized Chevy 4X4 for the winter and hauling things around. It's a very pleasant ride with all the modern ammenities. But I also enjoy giggling like a little girl on twisty mountain roads. Thus the GTV6 for summer driving.

You can get a decent GTV6 here for $3500. Less, if you have the patience to wait out a better deal. My 'fun budget' is not equipped to include: Ford GT40s, Ferraris, and the like.

As someone trained in car design, I can be a bit fussy on the visuals of the fun cars within my budget range. The GTV's styling is now a bit dated, but still manages to turn some heads and promotes some comments from the sidewalk. When I graduated from design school, I got to shake Giugiaro's hand on my way across the stage to accept my diploma (also Bertone's, and Pininfarina's hands). My right hand went unwashed for a week! So styling-wise... this ALFA meets my taste.

I don't consider myself a racer or world-class driver. But I do like to play in the corners when no one is looking. This chassis layout (51/49 weigh distribution, deDion, etc.) works well with my skill level. I can really push it thru a corner, and it's forgiving enough that I've never mowed the grass in the median with it. What else could I buy for that price that would turn me into a 16 year old? OK, there are certainly others. But this one gets the job done for me, handling-wise.

I'm 5-7 with short legs. British iron is fun too. But if I pull my seat up to where my feet are right with the pedals... on most Brit cars, the steering wheel would be punching me in the chest. I like the wheel at arms length. There is an old joke that 5000 years from now, when archeologists are poking around in the dirt in Europe... they will find something that we call a car. From the ones they dig up in England, they will deduce that the creatures who lived there had very short flipper-like arms, like a T-Rex. From the wheeled things they find in Italy, they'll reckon that the creatures who lived in that region had very short legs, and their hands dragged the ground when they walked.

Back to the quality of build issue. I agree that the GTV6 comes with many squeaks, rattles, and groans that many other cars would scowl at. The bad fit on things like glove box doors, and everything else, is way below acceptable standards. Many components are flimsy, and include tinny sounds. I'm not happy with the quality of build on these cars... but I guess I've accepted these as the nature of the beast (especially in my price range), and learned to live with them or ignore them.

A good example of how ALFA sneakily cut corners in manufacturing costs, can be seen if you remove a tail light lens from a GTV6. What you find waiting below, is the same sheet metal panel that was designed for the Alfetta slit tail lights. Instead of paying to retool that panel, they found a way to just cover it. Clever, or sneaky?

As you say, most cars today have solved the quality issue. Toyotas and Hondas led the way, and everyone had to play catch up. I'm not in any way dismissing the value of a well-built car with tight seams, and quality feel (and quality sounds, like when you shut a door, etc.). But it does sometimes seem like we're working towards one homogulous car... a Toyota four door sedan, but with different grilles and marque badges.

[Gabor K.]

Quote:

Originally Posted by planetmojo On the much discussed GTV6 hood bulge... my 2 best friends from Art Center became the Head of Design at FIAT/ALFA/Lancia. One succeeding the other. But their terms there would have been after the Alfetta Coupe and GTV6 were born. Otherwise, with a quick e-mail, I could get to the bottom of that mystery

[wonderbrad]

Here's another topic: Tail lights. I read in some source that the reason they went to the single piece GTV6 tail lights from the 2 part Alfetta lights was because there were rust issues around the seams of the original lights. Is that true, or did they change to the one piece lights to "update" the look and reduce cost? Or maybe it was related to US export?

[planetmojo]

wonderbrad... I'm only guessing here, so please don't take this as necessarily factual. Just logical input for you to include in arriving at your own answer.

In getting attention for new model introductions, and visually separating them from an earlier edition... most companies will offer some detail changes to differentiate the old from the new. I'm stating the obvious, here. So it would make sense that a small detail update like a tail light design change would be on the table, when switching from Alfetta Coupe to GTV6.. Also stating the obvious, in the last GTV6 models ('86, and perhaps '85 too?) they added a fibreglass panel between the two lenses to unify that plane side-to-side. This would be of course, a little tweak to help refresh sagging sales, as a body shape comes to the end of it's life span (Alfetta intro in 1975... last GTV6 here in the US, 1986). Eleven years is a long time to expect one basic body shape to be percieved as still fresh. So the above just suggests that the larger lenses may just be from the natural flow in car design, and expected. Refresh periodically, or differentiate.

On considering your thoughts on rust in that area... I have seen many Alfetta Coupes with rust bubbles in those exact spots. A friend was showing me that exact nastiness on his Alfetta, recently. I told him I had a bone car (GTV6) that still had decent steel there. So I removed that entire rear section with a SawzAll, and gave it to him for his Alfetta. The GTV6 that steel came from was mostly dust everywhere else, but still in good shape in that panel where the larger lenses had protected it. So there may be something to be said for your theory?

On the other hand, if rust issues were ever a concern at ALFA at that period of time... their choice of pre-rusted steel from Russia should have been included in their thinking, as well.

No facts in my statements. Just trying to draw some logical conclusions, where facts are not easily available.

[Ennio]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabor K. I offer for comparison photos of the would be second series GTV6 in 1983 that did not come in production. Instead, as we know, a much simpler version came into production, with just a horizontal rubber band with grey color undreneath etc.

[planetmojo]

Hi Gabor... my friends at ALFA were Chris Bangle, who left ALFA/FIAT to become the head of design at BMW about the time his FIAT Coupe was introduced. Bangle's vacant position at ALFA was immediately filled by my college roommate, Peter Davis (a fellow Vermonster). Peter moved from ALFA to become the head of interior design at GM, mmmm perhaps 6 or 7 years ago? Both have moved on to other things in recent months.

So, if I had to guess, I'd say that my two contacts were running the design in Milan from maybe 1988? to 2003? Neither would have been there when the 'tea tray' decision was being made. Before their time there.

I'm quite happy in believing your account of how the tea tray was born. So I hope I didn't seem to be suggesting that your research wasn't plausible. You actually seem to have the best grip on this question. This question on the tea tray does not keep me up at night, either. Altho I've suggested in some past input on this subject, that I think someone should have put their pencil down a bit sooner on the hood bulge bling (an unexpected panel, in a contrasting color and texture, with grooves, asymmetrically offset grooves, and a non-functional divot behind the panel)... way too busy in one confined area! Having said that, I can't think of too many other cars with a panel there. So it does make it a bit unique. And I've come to actually like it, over time, in spite of the multiple accents on top of accents.

I could ask Bangle and Davis, in my next e-mail chat with them, if they are aware of any of the history surrounding the tea tray. But, I expect that was before either's tenure at ALFA. And they would have no knowledge on that detail.

[wonderbrad]

Bangle or Davis might know who actually designed the feature and be able to put you in contact with that person though. Would be great to hear it from the horse's mouth!