GTV6 Designer

[Gabor K.]

Alfavirus: nice about the first part.

About the Montreal/GTV6 comparison. Really can´t agree about GTV6 being faster in any way than the Montreal. The figures were 7,6 s /223 km/h Montreal (200hp) and 8,2 s / 205 kmh for the GTV6 (160hp). Also the GTV6 weighs less than Montreal. With the V8 in the GTV chassis the car will weigh less than the Montreal and thereby be faster. As I have made a GTV8 and tried to follow that car with my then GTV6 2,5 I can tell you I could only follow the first 10 meters, then it was goodbye...

What I actually had in mind is a collectors car with 3L V8 and 280-300Hp. That would have been a rocket of its time. They called it La bomba per la strada.

[alfavirusnz]

Yes, I did wonder about the publicity at the time and whether the advertising boys were getting a bit carried away. Is a GTV6 quicker over a standing 400m or something with maybe better traction?
I`ve always like the idea of a Montreal engine in a 116 GTV as I love the GT/GTV shape and a quad cam aristocratic V8 fitted really appeals. If Montreal engines were easier to come by (especially over here on the other side of the world) I would have fitted one. I like the idea of the transaxle so would keep. Much more appealling than a sohc V6 and period rather than fitting an electronically controlled later, albeit Alfa,quad cam V6.
Those German GTV8`s of that era look interesting.
I`ve always believed that the first series 116 GT/GTV`s ( I think they are gorgeous & exotic looking) would form the basis of a great `70`s/early `80`s supercar with a bigger engine than the 2 litre (say 3-3.5litres/8cylinders), appropriate chassis mods (but keeping with the exotic existing configuration)
and a decent interior -again keeping with the same layout but made with better materials and more attention to detail in fit and finish-my idea would be not to modernise it but accept the basic design warts and all and do what maybe it could have been, or even what the engineers at Alfa at the time considered.
You would then have a pedigree car (Alfa is after all a prestigious & historic brand) that lived up to its looks and had the fit and finish it should have had. It would with its size then have been an extremely agile, very usable ( as in a 911 Porsche compared to a Ferrari) performance car.

[Gabor K.]

We have very parallell thoughts, Alfavirus. A factory 116 V8 3L would really have been something. Unfortunately much of the Alfa soul was lost when ownership was transferred to Fiat. Had Alfa been intact they could have done the same thing with the 116 GTV as Porsche did with the 911. Endless improving and refining and now they have a real desireable car which at the start was unthinkable. Today the 911 evolvment is a success story. What a wonderful GTV could we have if Alfa had done the same thing? Maybe something not unlike the 8C transaxle concept but for a fraction of the price.

[planetmojo]

Agree 100% on fit and finish. It's difficult to follow ALFAs reasoning on how to build a car? There are areas where they paid attention: eg. the interior mirror has been custom designed to eliminate all but the shape of the foreshortened hatch glass, as opposed to just plugging a rectangular one from any old model. And other details where they cheaped out: econo pre-rusted body steel from the Russians, etc. If you remove the tail light lenses, you'll of course find the t-lite slits from the Alfetta Coupe still waiting. Obviously, a way to eliminate the cost of revising the tooling. Clever, or cheaping out? Dunno?

On the switch lever that operates the healight high beams... you push down on the lever to get the beams to elevate! On what planet might this make sense?

The involvement of FIAT may have saved the ALFA logo... but not the ALFA culture. Much of the definition of 'sports car' includes RWD and manual transmission, in my opinion. When you change to FWD and include automatics, you now have a GT or sporty car... but not a sports car. FWD is good for the manufacturer, as it's a more efficient way to build a car. FWD is of no use to someone who considers himself a 'driver', tho. FIAT turned ALFA into an Italian Saab, when they altered the layout.

I've had this discussion with several who have disagreed with this premise. My reply often includes the fact that in NASCAR racing, the cars they are based around are ALL FWD in the showroom... but every one has been converted to RWD for the track. Why would you go to that much trouble if there were no performance benefits?

Having said that, I've developed a preference for Italian iron over the years. They seem to understand 'balance'. Whereas some concentrate on putting huge horsepower into a car without upgrading suspension and such... ALFA and Ducati work toward a good balance of power and cornering ability. One doesn't seem to overpower the other. Plus styling deliciousness! ALFA had 'X' amount of R&D and componentry $$ to work with. They chose to put their money into making a great performer... and let things like the dash skin, and detailing fit and finish, suffer.

Since I've owned several Alfetta Coupes and GTV6s, since 1981, I guess that answers any questions on how I view this car... warts and all.

I'm considering popping a 24 valve from a 164 into my GTV6 project car. I've heard convincingly that the hood will still shut. And a friend is is in the middle of this conversion, now. I'll let him be my guinea pig, to find out whether the upgrade outweighs the nightmares in the conversion process. Add headers and a Stebro exhaust, too. Maybe something like this will be what you were talking about... What a 1987 GTV could have been? We'll see?

[alfavirusnz]

Gabor and I were really thinking about the original 116 coupe and its possible evolution. The Porsche analogy is a very good one as Alfa and Porsche were head on competitors and very comparable in quality and engineering up to late 60`s /very early 70`s. The GTV6 is just a plasticised/bastardised Alfetta GTV compared to the pure original (the European versions we are talking about here-USA market models are even worse).
Reality is though this car was designed in the late 60`s/early 70`s when there were few regulations to design around, no-one was scared to be different and interesting car manufacturers each had a engineering team who believed they had a better way and design philosophy. To hell with cost accountants, market test groups etc.
Those days are gone and so is individualism and interesting cars.

[wonderbrad]

I liked the Scirocco story, Planetmojo! I have had many people tell me my car looks like a DeLorean. At first I was sort of taken aback but then realized that, just as with the Scirocco, Giugiaro was the designer of both cars!

[Gabor K.]

How about comparing upwards. Can you see similarities between the GTV and the Khamsin? I think there are, although the Khamsin is bigger and different front, but still..

also a link:
1975 Maserati Khamsin For Sale

[wonderbrad]

I believe the Khamsin was a Gandini design at Bertone. It's a stunner though.

[DaVinci]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alleggerita The only piece on why the ugly plastic tray that I came across: supposedly had to do with snow on the hood and temperature affecting fuel injection sensors. Not sure whether it is true or not. Can't remember where I got it from. Have never spent any time to check out if it actually might make sense. Fact is that it is not an exactly attractive solution.

[alfavirusnz]

I hate to tell you this guys but that "ugly plastic tray"from what I have read in an interview in one of the auto stylists magazines with design team members is purely there for styling, they thought it needed some visual relief. Nothing mentioned about a pop panel in case of backfires,future turbos etc etc.








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[Gabor K.]

I completely agree with you Richard J..
Its completely unlogical that the factory would put that plastic tray there in case the plenum would pop off. Of course if that problem had emerged at that time they would have solved it the technical way and not by an escape hatch! That story is just pun!

[Gabor K.]

I found here an interview of Philippo Surace, the leading engineer for several projects at the time before the Fiat take over. He was also the responsible for the GTV6 project. At the time of introduction he announced that they had tried 10 different styles of bonnet for the GTV6 and decided for the the final version out of stylistic considerations. Not mentioned in this interview though. However that at first a 2,2L V6 engine was planned, was new for me. Fortunately Suraces influence resulted in a 2,5 and later the 3L engine!

Pages 11-13

http://web.mac.com/arocswfl1/arocswf...1jan07.pdf.pdf

[High Hope]

Planetmojo, you offer interesting insight into the GTV6 design, but I have to disagree with the notion that the car is all curves and sweeps when seen from the side.

To me the car is all about planes and hard creases, with the angular window shapes, knife-edged character lines and overall tension in its proportions. Having recently followed a first generation Rabbit on the highway (and former owner of an '83 GTI) the similarities are striking. The bulge in the hood, from my perspective, fits the car well.

The few sweeps on the body are interesting but contrasting touches that soften the details a bit, esp around the rear hatch and grille opening, IMO.

[gtv27]

I think the bulging hood really makes the car - it gives the front end some weight to match the visual bulk of the hatch rear. That it is also functional - not just a styling pose (notwithstanding the tea tray and the divot behind it!) also makes it a good feature for mine.

This is particularly apparent when you park a nuova 2.0 and 2.5 side by side. The bigger bumpers give the rear more bulk. You don't get this with the earlier stainless bumpered models which are visually more delicate and pure.

[Gabor K.]

Yes I agree, the bulging hood and the lid shows this is the more desired GTV6 with 30Hp more power than the the 2L. So its form is showing its the top model.

Strange however that the GTV6 hood is so disliked by some. Today some of this form has been revived in the highly acclaimed Corvette ZR1. This time the plastic plate is see through so you can see the technology underneath. In tests I have seen this see through cover has not been criticized, so it seems its accepted! So would it have been better if the GTV6 had a see through plate showing the plenum? Well, in my opinion not. I think its OK as it is.

Some photos of the Corvette solution.