11-06-2009, 12:07 PM
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 Quote:
Originally Posted by junglejustice
Not just that Greg - you have to heat-treat that block to stress-release it. I've talked extensively about this before guys (do a search for "seasoned block" and have a read!
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Regarding my comment about forced induction vs Big Bore conversions, I want to point out that I was talking about forced induction and big bore conversions in general. I never mentioned 24 valve swaps, or my supercharger kit.
Here is my logic on General forced induction vs General Big Bore conversions. Lets consider a GTV6 2.5, one supercharged, and one with a big bore conversion. Both have essentially identical engine management issues, so that's a wash. Both should have an engine overhaul. Both should have new forged pistons (obviously the big bore kit will). The extra cost associated with the big bore conversion will almost exactly equal what it will cost to add a non intercooled, non water injected supercharger set up, piping and all.
When it's all together I think the forced induction 2.5 (supercharged or turbocharged) will compare favorably with the big bore 3.1.
Beyond that I have made no comparisons. Obviously a hot 24 valver, especially a big bore 24 valver would be another issue. I fully agree that the South African big bore engines are a very good deal. Especially the 3.7 24 valve monster. You get a lot for the money!
In regards to my supercharger kit, it really can't flow enough air to be effective on a hot 24 valver. The supercharger is too small. On the monster 3.7 I think it would actually act as a restriction! Of course that could be solved easily with a bigger blower, but we hit the transaxle limitation anyway. I don't have any way around that.
Greg
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11-06-2009, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Gordon
John, I am not disagreeing with that. My point is simply that a big bore conversion is a bigger deal than just pistons, rings, pins, and liners. It's the work on the block that's tricky. That's one of the reasons there are so few suppliers of big bore conversions. It's also one of the reasons your big bore conversions are a good deal. I have always said that. Greg
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I just did not want these guys to lose sight of what it actually takes to round-out that S/C kit or to do-it-yourself on the 24v conversion (anybody's setup for that matter...)! You really do need the programmable fuel & ignition, the crank-trigger wheel & sensor mods, the intercooler etc - and that all gets added to the 3K of the S/C comparison conversation! (You personally make almost no money at that point and that is a fact too - this truly is a labour of love for you and I know that)!
I just don't think that we always take all of tat into consideration in these conversations when you look at the 10.4:1 3.0 liter 24 valve build that includes the core, the stand-alone, the custom headers, the intakes, the transaxle conversion and it is all nice and new at 10K! Going at it yourself takes a bunch of effort - yes - likely equal to the S/C conversion. Either way, you need the rebuild eventually.
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Full-Race 3.7 Litre 24v Milano; Street/Track 3.0 Litre 24v Milano Verde; 6-speed 3.45 litre 24v Street 164 LS/Super; Future 24v Projects; '06 Scion XB - Runs! 
Last edited by junglejustice; 11-06-2009 at 12:53 PM.
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11-06-2009, 01:11 PM
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A 3.0 (either from a milano verde or a 164), and keeping everything looking at least mostly stock (exahust with a cat, stock airbox, etc) would be alot better than a supercharger and an illegal smog certificate in california. Even if you take it off for the test, if you get pulled over your car can still be impounded for having illegal equipment on it.
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11-06-2009, 04:14 PM
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Don't pop your hood then 
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1987 Milano Platinum - check for many new items. [B][COLOR="Red"][URL="http://alfabb.com/bb/forums/showthread.php?t=42980"]PARTING OUT[/URL][/COLOR][/B]
1989 Verde - Harsh shocks and SS rears, 27mm torsion bars, stainless lines, pads, 16X7.5 rims, 4.10 rebuilt platinum tranny, poly bushes, and RSR 28mm front and 25.4mm adjustable sways!
1984 GTV-6 - 80K miles
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11-07-2009, 08:22 AM
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FYI - dimensionally - ALL of the big-bore conversion long-blocks appear 100% stock on the outside - they have NO external modifications or markings to the blocks or heads of ay kind! With intakes and headers removed, you can not tell a 2.5, from a 3.0, a 3.2, a 3.45, or a 3.7 litre - in 12 valve or in 24 valve trim for that matter! Each long-block simply looks like any other 12v or 24v from the outside!
What you do with the intakes and headers and injection system is up to you (and yes - it impacts power), but you could essentially have a bone-stock external appearance if you wanted to and a 10.7:1 3.7 litre internally, with some nice mild street/track cams, very stock-looking street/track headers and a completely stock-appearing intake setup!
You could for example run the 164 intake plenum and intake runners (12 valve or 24 valve setup), with ALL of the stock sensors, idle control motor, OEM emissions plumbing and single throttle-body intact, standard CAT, O2 sensor, 164 L or LS ECU and harness and run this thing on pump-gas! It will run and drive normally on the stock Bosch Motronic maps.
If you wanted to ensure emissions passing, you would simply add the UniChip piggy-back ECU box - not much larger than the size of a pack of sigs (hidden under-dash somewhere) and just do some mild optimization at various spots to have the fueling more accurate!
Such a sleeper would come to you at minimal cost (comparably speaking - since you're running lower compression, likely some stock rods, you're not buying 6 individual throttle-bodies, elaborate headers, stand-alone engine management and harness, manufacturing extensive custom intake setups, or anything of the sorts)!
Power will still be in the 270-280 at the wheels-range on pump gas, smooth idle and a California emissions-legal car! 
__________________
Full-Race 3.7 Litre 24v Milano; Street/Track 3.0 Litre 24v Milano Verde; 6-speed 3.45 litre 24v Street 164 LS/Super; Future 24v Projects; '06 Scion XB - Runs!
Last edited by junglejustice; 11-07-2009 at 08:25 AM.
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11-09-2009, 08:58 AM
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If the police pull you over, they can look under your hood if they feel like it. If you were going to run motronic on a milano, couldnt you even get a thrrottle body from a later european 75 that came with motronic, so you could keep the stock intake?
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11-09-2009, 12:10 PM
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Can anybody post a link to the law that says the cops can look under your hood if they feel like it? In most parts of the U.S. they need your permission, a warrant, or probable cause to search any part of your vehicle. The probable cause part is pretty vague, but I don't think they can look under your hood just because they want to.
It might be best to post that link in a new topic so we keep this thread on topic.
You certainly could run Motronic with the stock intake plenum. That's not a problem.
Greg
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11-09-2009, 02:14 PM
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umm, havent the anti terror bills changed all that in the US? certainly here in europe, the anti terror bill, means the police can stop you without a reason and open your hood, trunk, pull your car to pieces if they want, all in the name of security..the bill of rights or constitution goes right out of the window here now..
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11-09-2009, 07:00 PM
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Even if they forcefully pop your hood, you can argue that it was unlawful to the judge, and he/she is supposed to throw it out..
That being said, I do know someone that said, "No, you may not look in my engine bay" but the officer just replied, "Well, now I'm suspicious of what you may be hiding, so pop your hood now".
Teh sux
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1987 Milano Platinum - check for many new items. [B][COLOR="Red"][URL="http://alfabb.com/bb/forums/showthread.php?t=42980"]PARTING OUT[/URL][/COLOR][/B]
1989 Verde - Harsh shocks and SS rears, 27mm torsion bars, stainless lines, pads, 16X7.5 rims, 4.10 rebuilt platinum tranny, poly bushes, and RSR 28mm front and 25.4mm adjustable sways!
1984 GTV-6 - 80K miles
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11-09-2009, 07:02 PM
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One more reason to stay on topic:
It's an Alfa afterall, not a mid-nineties Honda. I've been hassled WAY less driving my Milano with all kinds of ...issues... then my Japanese drift car that screams "STREET RACE!!!".
So don't worry bout it =)
__________________
1987 Milano Platinum - check for many new items. [B][COLOR="Red"][URL="http://alfabb.com/bb/forums/showthread.php?t=42980"]PARTING OUT[/URL][/COLOR][/B]
1989 Verde - Harsh shocks and SS rears, 27mm torsion bars, stainless lines, pads, 16X7.5 rims, 4.10 rebuilt platinum tranny, poly bushes, and RSR 28mm front and 25.4mm adjustable sways!
1984 GTV-6 - 80K miles
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11-09-2009, 08:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant
That being said, I do know someone that said, "No, you may not look in my engine bay" but the officer just replied, "Well, now I'm suspicious of what you may be hiding, so pop your hood now".
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In this case, the cop simply bullied your friend into popping the hood for him.
Greg
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11-12-2009, 08:04 PM
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24V conversion
Hello,
I just saw this thread and I thought I would add my $.02. You will not be able convert a GTV6 2.5L 12V to a 3.0L 24V for $5,000. It costs this much to just rebuild the engine if not more. It doesn't make sense to me to go to all this work and not put in a new or close to new engine even if you are doing the work yourself. Pulling a stock 2.5 12v engine is not easy, doing the conversion is a whole story by itself.
I think we are lucky enough to have the only one in CA that I know of so far. We spent at least double this amount just for the new engine and conversion parts. This did not include the extra labor to tweak issues such as the starter, alternator, dyno tune, and break in issues.
We were going to go with Gregs Supercharger but it will not pass inspection so smog is out of the questions and therefore no registration in CA.
To the average Non-Alfa Person and even some Alfa nuts, don't realize that the 3.0 L 24V engine that we have in the GTV6 is not stock. We passed the visual inspection with no problems except the air filter system. It looks stock. Passing CA Smog at the tail pipe was a whole other exercise and I would not suggest doing this without the putting some extra $ aside to take care of fine tuning just for smog.
I just was pulled over going to Infineon Race Track for the CSRG event. The HP officer never asked to look at the engine and even if he did I don't think he would know we swapped engines. We are close by to you if you would like to see our completed project.
Here are some pictures of the engine. We are now considering doing a track GTV6 rather than trying to increase our current GTV6 HP to 400hp. I don't think its worth it to fool around with CA Smog. Finally, if we do take the Alfa to speed then we just get a stupid ticket. Therefore, unless you really love your Alfa, don't care that you probably won't get your $ back, and don't care about the issues to deal with CA smog, I would upgrade. If not, just keep your Alfa Stock for the street and save your $.
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82 Alfa GTV6-3.0 24V Restored/Modified
x-78 Spyder
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11-12-2009, 11:31 PM
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Greg, can you post a link or tell me where I can do more reading on this? I would much rather get a fix-it ticket or speeding ticket than a state-ref if I was driving someone else's car that has illegal modifications.
__________________
1987 Milano Platinum - check for many new items. [B][COLOR="Red"][URL="http://alfabb.com/bb/forums/showthread.php?t=42980"]PARTING OUT[/URL][/COLOR][/B]
1989 Verde - Harsh shocks and SS rears, 27mm torsion bars, stainless lines, pads, 16X7.5 rims, 4.10 rebuilt platinum tranny, poly bushes, and RSR 28mm front and 25.4mm adjustable sways!
1984 GTV-6 - 80K miles
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11-12-2009, 11:33 PM
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Chuck, first 24V GTV6 in CA?
Didn't Larry do one like 10 years ago??
__________________
1987 Milano Platinum - check for many new items. [B][COLOR="Red"][URL="http://alfabb.com/bb/forums/showthread.php?t=42980"]PARTING OUT[/URL][/COLOR][/B]
1989 Verde - Harsh shocks and SS rears, 27mm torsion bars, stainless lines, pads, 16X7.5 rims, 4.10 rebuilt platinum tranny, poly bushes, and RSR 28mm front and 25.4mm adjustable sways!
1984 GTV-6 - 80K miles
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11-13-2009, 09:37 AM
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Grant: You could start here: What Happens When I Am Stopped By The Police . I am sure the ACLU's site would have information on this as well.
Yes, Larry Jr. Did build a 24 valve GTV6, although I don't know if he went through the trouble to smog it. In any case, it was a project on a different level. Cchan's engine has a lot more mods.
Greg |
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