GTV6 vs Porsche 944 in Jan 09 issue of Hemmings Sports & Exotic Car

[sayporsha]

There's a lot of talk about the 951 here, just remember the magazine compares the 944 NA with the GTV6. That said, I've been thinking about some other apples-to-apples comparisons that would be interesting to see:
GTV6 3.0 vs. 944S2 3.0 16v
GTV6 3.0 4-cam (?) vs. 968 3.0 16v Variocam
GTV6 Callaway Turbo vs. 951

Regarding some of the comments in this thread:

The 944/951/968 cars are extremely reliable, but their Achilles' heel is the cam & balance shaft belts. They should be replaced every 30k miles, with a re-tension at 500 & 15k miles. You can get away with replacing them at 45k if you re-tension them at 30k and drive like a grandma. Parts are reasonably priced and far more plentiful than GTV6 parts. The reliability, comfort and utility (fold-down seats) of these cars make them very practical daily drivers.

All 951 cars have the 2.5 liter 4-cylinder. The Turbo S cars have an uprated turbo (k26/8), M030 suspension & brakes & a host of other upgrades.

All 944 NA cars (non-S2) have the 2.5 liter 4-cylinder, except for the 89 which has a 2.7.

A lot of people like the 1986 951 because it's pre-ABS, pre-airbag, about 100 pounds lighter than later cars, and it's the only 951 you can run Fuchs wheels on (although some guys convert their hubs to 1987+ offset)

A 4-cylinder Porsche will never sound as cool as a GTV6. However, I still love the sound of my 951 at full boost with my 4" exhaust & Magnaflow muffler!

[superloaf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sayporsha However, I still love the sound of my 951 at full boost with my 4" exhaust & Magnaflow muffler!

[sayporsha]

Quote:

Originally Posted by superloaf i do like how mine sputters on lift off acceleration or downshifting. does yours do that? and on full boost, the sound completely changes and the car screams. only problem is that the stealth factor is gone and everyone gets scared.

[sayporsha]

Oh, and regarding the auto-tensioner for the cam belt on 1987+ 944s, it still requires you to perform the belt tensioning at the prescribed intervals. It's just a spring-loaded device with a locking bolt that you must loosen to apply tension to the belt.

The auto-tensioner on the 968 cam belt actually adjusts as you drive and the belt stretches, as the name implies.

The balance shaft belt tensioners remain unchanged between the 944s & 968s. They all require manual adjustment using the eccentric rollers, special tools and a little mojo.

[superloaf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sayporsha Oh, and regarding the auto-tensioner for the cam belt on 1987+ 944s, it still requires you to perform the belt tensioning at the prescribed intervals. It's just a spring-loaded device with a locking bolt that you must loosen to apply tension to the belt. The auto-tensioner on the 968 cam belt actually adjusts as you drive and the belt stretches, as the name implies. The balance shaft belt tensioners remain unchanged between the 944s & 968s. They all require manual adjustment using the eccentric rollers, special tools and a little mojo.

[sayporsha]

I've read a little about the GTV6/Milano timing belt replacement. If you can tackle that, the 944 belt service should be within your capabilities. I used to have a Porsche shop do mine, but I've done a couple of cars myself now with the info & tools I found through surfing the forums.
This site has a good writeup:
Clark's Garage Home Page
This guy makes/sells the special tools:
Arnnworx Home Page

Now, back to the Alfa/Porsche comparo...

One of my favorite GTV6 sound bytes (not a 2.5):

YouTube - Alfa Romeo 3.6l 24v GTV6

One of my favorite 951 sound bytes (not stock):

YouTube - Porsche 951, 1st to 4th flat out

[Grant]

I've been to the bookstore twice now...are all of you guys subscribers to have the latest issue already?

The most current one I have seen has the MGB GTC (6 zylinder) and the Giulietta Sprint on the cover.

[Echo Leader]

Grant,

I'm a subscriber, but got my issue just yesterday. So I think there's some variation in Hemming's delivery schedule...

Concerning the comparo (Disclaimer: my Porsche 944/951 experience is confined to semi-extensive test-driving.): I will in no way contest the overall goodness (perhaps even greatness) of the 944 and its variants. I believe them to be well engineered, well executed vehicles, each of which is probably excellent with respect to its target 'class'.

That said, having driven a number of them, and in a number of variations (N/A, Turbo, S2), I've just never experienced a passionate response to the vehicle. It is, for me, one of those rare (?) cases where the spec sheet, performance numbers, and overall concept are spot on, but somehow doesn't "do it" for me.

I suppose everyone's Soul-o-Meter is different and get's pegged by different things, but for me, the 944's have always mysteriously lacked whatever it is that causes mine to enter the "I MUST BUY THIS" zone. I've scratched my head about this a number of times and have revisited the idea of acquiring a 944 of some ilk ...

Actually, as pre-license kid, the 944 family was my realistic dream-car. A reasonably affordable slice of auto nirvana. I bought books, read online, and followed every AutoTrader ad I could find. It was a real shock when I first drove one, that I didn't fall immediately in love. Maybe I'd over-hyped it in my mind or something. Confusing and disappointing really.

My GTV6 experience was similar in build-up. The outcome was dramatically different though as the car somehow exceeded my expectations and I felt the 'soul'. Driving it was/is an emotional experience.

Thank goodness we don't have that Top Gear italian buzz-word box here on the BB, I'd be in the poor house.

[ToonRboy]

If I recall, there was a Road & Track article that compared the GTV6 with the Porsche 924 Turbo and the Datsun 280ZX. (N/A 924 made 110HP and 924 Turbo 170HP ['84 924S made 150HP for just under $20k, which I think would be a better comparison - also prettier than the 924 Turbo with all the cut-outs in the nose).


Comparing to the 944 is, for lack of a better word, - stupid. The 944, even in N/A form is closing in on $30K and the GTV6 ran ~ $17K. If you're going to bring the 944 Turbo into this comparo, then compare to the Callaway GTV6. Which would actually be in the same class.

Having owned two of the vehicles in the R&T comparison I mention (and a friend owning a N/A '85 944) I could give some subjective notes on real experience.

The 924S was a beautifully styled car for it's time. More sports car than 2+2 GT as in the GTV6. My love for the 116/119 (or 161 officially) chassis car's is just that. The drivetrain. Looks are ok. The '78 280Z I owned, had classic lines ala Ferrari 250GT. Beautiful from any angle! ZX was ugly IMO.

My take in various categories?

Exterior design (looks):
1) 924S - (some like it some hate it. Inside, you can't see the hood. I like to see the hood in front of me. It looks best from the outside IMO)
2) 280Z - (what can you say, those cza-paneez hit a homer with this car!)
3) GTV6 - (Dated design but I like it. Though I get less attention than with the Milano's ['cept when I drive by - everyone looks! What the hell was..?] ;p

Interior design.
1) 280Z (All the gauges you need where you need 'em)
2) GTV6 (Don't care for "square" & console made by Mattel)
3) 924S (Too space-age and "blah-zay" - esp. don't care for the steering wheel)
(though the 924 was more "refined" it had problems with cracking dash, fogging-up windshield, switches popping out, and notchy disconnected shifter [still, better than the GTV6])

Handling:
1) 924S (on rails)
2) GTV6 (great to toss about & forgiving. Can pretty much control with right foot)
3) 280Z (tail happy & unrecoverable)

Performance:
1) 280Z (hands down!)
2) GTV6 (sounds better'n it goes)
3) 924S (girls Porsche)

Aural Quality:
1) GTV6 (everyone agrees on this one!)
2) 280Z (pretty damn good)
3) 924S (forgetdaboudit)

I never got a 944 but I did buy an '89 Mitubishi Starion ESI-R (which was Damond Star's answer to the 944 Turbo. Porsche even licensed the balance shaft technology from DSM). Very similar engine to the Porsche but with hemispherical heads [single cam, dual rockers]). Basically a long stroke big fat 4-banger, small turbo. These puppies put out LOTS of low-end torque to the tune of a 5.0 Mustang of the day. Unfortunately, the sound was more to the liking of of a truck driver than an Italian car lover. But it looked cool and could scoot to boot!

Everything comes full circle though. Square or pop-up headlights are out and round back again. Swooping body lines, especially the rear roofline are coming back! So, what's old is new

[DaytonaCoupe]

Also having owned an '86 951 I figured I'd chime in here before someone closes the thread and this rare Porsche talk comes to an abrupt end.

Another poor design in the '86 951 is that of the exhaust manifolds which are made of stainless with no stress relief bellows. These early headers crack like crazy, especially when the engine mounts get old and begin to sag. In some cases the flanges that attach to the head at the exhaust ports can crack off completely. Not at all fun.

The newer 951s have a redesigned set of headers with accordion style bellows built into the stainless pipes which allows them to flex ever so slightly, therefore eliminating the cracking issue. I remember buying a set used from George Beuselinck (sp?) at 944Ecology in upstate NY back in the day, and the retrofit solved the problem beautifully.

The guys at Wheel Enhancement (again, 10 or so years ago) managed to get me a set of contemporary 993 Targa alloys & Dunlop D40M2s with the correct spacers and they looked STELLAR on my Indishrot (India Red aka Guards Red) 951. I don't think wheel spacing is an issue.

Yes, the absence of SRS does shave weight, but I'd be inclined to have it for safety's sake. Some may argue that the absence of SRS allows you to install that Momo Corse wheel you always liked so much.

The M030 suspension option is wonderful and seeking out a 951 that has it is most definitely worth your time and effort.

Cheers.

[sayporsha]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ToonRboy Comparing to the 944 is, for lack of a better word, - stupid. The 944, even in N/A form is closing in on $30K and the GTV6 ran ~ $17K.

[Grant]

Never heard someone so into Alfa's enjoying the looks of the 280ZX!

I went to JCCS in SoCal (Japanese Classic Car Show), and although I was surrounded by excellent examples of classic cars I walked away from the event thinking they were all just imitators.

I had the same feelings about 944's. In High School my dream car was a 924 Turbo. I drove a few 944's (S, Turbo, and 8V) and I think the only car I would have remotely enjoyed was the S. The Ventilator head on the 2.5 made it a pretty sweet drive.

The only German car's I've ever gotten excited by are older 911's and Boxsters. Never drove a newer 911...

[gtv27]

Years ago I took a friends 944 (early model with the ugly dash) for a nice quick drive. i thought it's handling and brakes were fabulous, but the engine was a bit flat. I remember it having a strange wheel between the knees driving position too.

If i didn't already have the GTV6 I'd seriously consider a 944 as a fun road car. Would be a bit worried about parts prices though (is that ironic coming from an Alfa owner?).

[sayporsha]

After a week of driving the GTV6 I decided to drive my 944 Turbo today. I was reminded of why I love the 944 and I thought of a few points of comparison that need to be shared here.

I love my GTV6 and I’ve sung it’s praises here. As I mentioned in an earlier post, every car brings different strengths to the driving experience. IMHO the 944 has the GTV6 beat in the areas I’m about to discuss. I’m not saying one car is better than the other. This thread is a comparo, and I happen to own both cars so I feel obliged to share my impressions of both cars for the good of the order.

Fit & Finish
The 944 sounds like a tank when you shut the door. No squeaks or rattles, and unlike the GTV6, the dash doesn’t shake like mad when you hit a bump. High-quality materials abound in the 944, and the hardware doesn’t feel like it’s going to break in normal use. A lot of people dislike the 83-85 944 interior, but I rather like it. I think it’s sportier than the 85.5+ cabin, but the early seats & HVAC system do suck by comparison.

Ergonomics
The 944 fits me like a glove. It's like sliding into a cocoon. The 85.5+ factory Recaros are uber-comfortable & supportive. I have the factory “elevated steering wheel” option, which is a must-have IMHO. All controls & switchgear are within reach, and unlike the GTV6 I don’t feel like I have to stretch to reach them (although it’s physically impossible for me to heel & toe in the 944). I’m 6’3”, with most of my height from the waist up. I have a hard time getting comfortable in the GTV6. I think with a steering wheel spacer, low-mounted sport seats and bending the shifter back a couple inches I could be pretty comfortable in the GTV6. I love the car enough to go through the expense/trouble of all that, but for me the 944 is good to go in stock form.

Durability
You can cane a 944 like a rented mule all day long (and at track days, I do). The cars just do not break. In the GTV6 I’m torn between wanting to hear & feel the glorious 6 at redline, vs. worrying I’ll frag a guibo & shred the floorboard (or part of my body). That happened to a guy at PIR (only his floorboard got shredded). He said the guibo bolts just can’t take the centrifugal forces at high RPMs. I talked with him after he fixed it, but then his starter ring gear came loose & was making noise. I talked him into sitting out that track day so the thing didn’t grenade & send shrapnel through the tunnel (& maybe his ankles). You just don’t hear of that stuff happening with 944s.

Now, about that “soul” thing. Of course this is a purely subjective call. I will admit 944s feel a little numb compared to GTV6s. Porsche built these cars soft for the masses, but they respond very well to engine & chassis tuning - and I’m not just talking about turbo cars. They’ll never have the mojo of a silky 6, but they are Porsches and as such are de-tuned race cars. Tune one and you will awake it's soul.

I feel very fortunate to own one of each.

[sayporsha]

Time for some pics...My GTV6 & 944 Turbo: