Clitiky-clank noise from transaxle - Page 3 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #31 of 50 (permalink) Old 11-14-2015, 03:02 PM
Registered User
 
ToonRboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Illinois
Posts: 2,249
Send a message via Yahoo to ToonRboy Send a message via Skype™ to ToonRboy
"Inherent in the design of the transaxle" -You can buy into that in you want Del, but I know several 116/119 owners that dont experience this. Both my Verde and Gold did not have it, so I say "whatever".:-\
ToonRboy is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 50 (permalink) Old 11-14-2015, 03:31 PM
Del
Senior Member
Gold Subscriber
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: seattle
Posts: 12,018
Sorry, I'm only going by what Alfa told Carlo. Maybe it is a function on how much or what brand and weight lube is in the transaxle. Don't know. As I said, our Milano (100k miles) doesn't have it much, a little more when the ambient temps are higher, or after a spirited run for a while. If others don't have it, that's cool. Doesn't bother us in the least.

Del

Seattle

89 Milano (wife's daily driver since 1989, Shankle Sport)
91 164S (my daily driver since 1994)
94 164LS (~Q) (trip Alfa since 2000)
72 Morgan 27 (water time since 1976)

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6

Last edited by Del; 11-14-2015 at 03:44 PM.
Del is offline  
post #33 of 50 (permalink) Old 11-14-2015, 05:28 PM
Registered User
 
sportiva's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Newcastle Australia
Posts: 342
luckily for us that have the "the noise" it's only at idle and goes away when the clutch pedal is pushed
If asked about the noise I will say it's clutch rattle. It's so much easier than trying to explain the neutral rollover theory

Glen
86 gtv6 RED,LOW,LOUD
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

x 74 alfa sud sedan SLOW AND FUN
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

x 76 alfetta sedan DOG
x 81 alfetta sedan HAD IT 24YRS.NOW DEAD
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

x 86 75 v6 2.5 KILLED BY A FORD ON THE SYDNEY HARBOR BRIDGE
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
sportiva is offline  
 
post #34 of 50 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 08:51 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 1,876
I'm just bringing this back up because the mechanic who did my annual safety inspection was insistent my clutch was bad.
"Sounds like a rock tumbler in neutral, but it goes away when you put in the clutch."
It does seem to be worse when the ambient temp is lower. I might barely notice it in the spring or summer, but in the winter (even here in Central Texas when winter equals lows in the 60s) the noise is noticeably louder.
The car once again passed inspection on the first try. Somehow.
His comments did remind me it's time to inspect that clutch fork again. That's now on my "every 3 months maintenance list"!

as good as a car can be... briefly.
'82 GTV6
chairmankaga is offline  
post #35 of 50 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 12:26 PM
Registered User
Gold Subscriber
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: 592 Browns Trace Jericho, Vermont
Posts: 2,281
Garage
Had the same noise your describing. It annoyed me.
Center yoke is loose! Happened on my Sedan. Had all new stuff including clutch. It was something I over looked.
Used a stethoscope to find it. I thought it was the clutch as well, but just the nut was loose and now all fixed.

AlfasRule!

1972 Montreal (The Pumpkin)
1975 Alfetta Sedan
1975 Alfetta Coupe Race Car
1982 Spider
1984 GTV-6
1984 GTV-6 Verde (GiGi)
1987 Milano (Da NEW Winta Beata)
1987 Milano Verde(Da kREDden Mobile)
alfasrule is offline  
post #36 of 50 (permalink) Old 01-04-2017, 02:36 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 28
My clutch fork pivot ball-head broke on my GTV6-82 last month, and had the chance to inspect the front yoke and re-torqued it. It was on-spec, yet when I put everything together, the clitekly-clank noise was still there.

I am working on a second transaxle to replace the one I now have and will be installing a Kevlar lined new double-plate clutch I just finished blueprinting. In the process of doing the final inspection of the new clutch assembly, I found out that the throw-out bearing that the yoke engages with is affixed to the spring-plate with an internally latched circlip.

In front and behind of the circlip and pressure plate fingers, there is a star-shaped "Bellville-style" washer which is meant to take up the slack of the gap left by the pressure plate fingers, when the plate is being depressed and transition between conical-positive direction (cone of fingers pointing towards rear) and conical-negative direction (pedal fully depressed and pressure plate fingers almost flat or slightly pointing towards engine).

This star-shaped Bellville style washer fatigues with time, and it seems to loose its conical "Bellville" shape, allowing for too much slop between the throw-out bearing flange and the pressure plate fingers. At speed, and when the clutch is engaged, the throw-out bearing will have then a chance to "dance" around the splined input shaft protective cover tube and hence make the cliteky-clank noise.

This is my theory. I purchased from McMaster-Carr Supply Co. a number of 2.75 inch ID stainless shim washers and took-up the slack of the Bellville washer.

We'll see if it makes any difference.

Regards,

Carmelo

Carmelo
Alfa Romeo GTV6 1982 2.5L

Last edited by Carmelo; 01-05-2017 at 09:14 AM.
Carmelo is offline  
post #37 of 50 (permalink) Old 01-16-2017, 12:18 PM
Senior Member
Gold Subscriber
 
76Satisfaction's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Albany, NY & Sarpsborg, Norway
Posts: 501
Garage
I hope you get the results you are aiming for Carmelo. Since you get noise 'at speed' it doesn't sound like a neutral idle rollover problem.

I get the classic symptoms. Everything about the clickety-clack noise coming from my transaxle at low idle speeds is consistent with neutral idle rollover. I decided to wait for more evidence of a problem to present itself before I do anything. It's been three seasons on the track now. I have yet to experience any tranny or clutch problems others than the 2nd Synchro.
- Art

2007 Aston DB9, 1994 Alfa 164 LS, 1982 Alfa GTV6 Balocco SE, 1975 Maserati Bora, 1967 Plymouth Satellite convertible, 1965 Plymouth Satellite hardtop
76Satisfaction is offline  
post #38 of 50 (permalink) Old 01-16-2017, 12:58 PM
Registered User
 
racingswim2006's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: SE Michigan
Posts: 3,805
The rollover "noise" seems to be more pronounced when the gears on the pinion shaft have excessive float/ worn bushings (especially on 1st and 2nd), AND/OR the pinion or input shaft nuts have become loose. Many of those that were noisy had loose nuts on the pinion and input shaft, and correspondent wear on the pinion depth shim(s). If these nuts had not been staked, they would have backed themselves off.

Rob
Alfas first, then everything else.
racingswim2006 is offline  
post #39 of 50 (permalink) Old 01-29-2017, 07:11 AM
Senior Member
Gold Subscriber
 
76Satisfaction's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Albany, NY & Sarpsborg, Norway
Posts: 501
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by racingswim2006 View Post
...."noise" seems to be more pronounced ... (especially on 1st and 2nd)......
The same comment was made previously in this thread..

So in this scenario, the car is in motion, traveling in 1st and 2nd - and the noise in this case occurs "at speed", is that correct?

For comparison, the classic case of "Neutral Idle Rollover" is only in Neutral at low idle. Only. Never occurs in any other condition. Ever.

Just want to be clear this particular discussion covers two separate, different, transaxle noise problems.
- Art

2007 Aston DB9, 1994 Alfa 164 LS, 1982 Alfa GTV6 Balocco SE, 1975 Maserati Bora, 1967 Plymouth Satellite convertible, 1965 Plymouth Satellite hardtop
76Satisfaction is offline  
post #40 of 50 (permalink) Old 01-30-2017, 12:46 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 28
I believe the poster Trooper started by saying "It only happens when idling and never under power, no matter the speed."

I have had the same experience, exactly; only at idle with clutch engaged. Once the pedal is depressed (clutch disengaged) the noise disappears completely, cleanly and repeatably. Also once in movement from idle, no matter how low the speed is 5/10 MPH or less) the noise also disappears.

Regards,

Carmelo

Carmelo
Alfa Romeo GTV6 1982 2.5L
Carmelo is offline  
post #41 of 50 (permalink) Old 01-31-2017, 08:34 AM
Registered User
 
racingswim2006's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: SE Michigan
Posts: 3,805
Quote:
Originally Posted by 76Satisfaction View Post
The same comment was made previously in this thread..

So in this scenario, the car is in motion, traveling in 1st and 2nd - and the noise in this case occurs "at speed", is that correct?

For comparison, the classic case of "Neutral Idle Rollover" is only in Neutral at low idle. Only. Never occurs in any other condition. Ever.

Just want to be clear this particular discussion covers two separate, different, transaxle noise problems.
- Art
Art, I am not describing a second phenomenon. What I am trying to convey is that a transaxle that has wear in the gear bushings or has a worn pinon shim (and thus excessive float) will rattle more at idle. The 1st and 2nd gear bushings tend to wear the most, and that was all I was saying. Put another way - if you have a rattle at idle, it is very possible you have worn gear bushings and/or a worn pinion stack shim and/or loose pinion shaft nut inside the trans. It is very common.

Rob
Alfas first, then everything else.
racingswim2006 is offline  
post #42 of 50 (permalink) Old 03-16-2017, 12:49 AM
Registered User
 
sportiva's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Newcastle Australia
Posts: 342
transaxle rattle

Glen
86 gtv6 RED,LOW,LOUD
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

x 74 alfa sud sedan SLOW AND FUN
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

x 76 alfetta sedan DOG
x 81 alfetta sedan HAD IT 24YRS.NOW DEAD
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

x 86 75 v6 2.5 KILLED BY A FORD ON THE SYDNEY HARBOR BRIDGE
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
sportiva is offline  
post #43 of 50 (permalink) Old 03-16-2017, 12:51 AM
Registered User
 
sportiva's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Newcastle Australia
Posts: 342
The gearset was in neutral when I shot the video the clickety clack is the synchro assemblies moving around
bathed in oil and inside the gear cases they are silent I took this video during the last synchro service.I used the same clutch as it was only 1/2 worn after about 4k kilometers it has developed a noticeable different in sound between the clutch engaged and disengaged that sound is the throw out bearing engaging the pressure plate
The most likely place for a transaxle rattle is in the clutch housing there are so many parts in there that rotate and slide or rub against each other, like the clutch plate springs the throw out bearing the input shaft splines the yoke splines the two bearings in the clutch cover and the fork I would look here for noises before opening the gearcases
cheers
Attached Images
 

Glen
86 gtv6 RED,LOW,LOUD
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

x 74 alfa sud sedan SLOW AND FUN
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

x 76 alfetta sedan DOG
x 81 alfetta sedan HAD IT 24YRS.NOW DEAD
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

x 86 75 v6 2.5 KILLED BY A FORD ON THE SYDNEY HARBOR BRIDGE
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by sportiva; 03-17-2017 at 04:14 AM.
sportiva is offline  
post #44 of 50 (permalink) Old 03-16-2017, 05:41 PM
Senior Member
Gold Subscriber
 
76Satisfaction's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Albany, NY & Sarpsborg, Norway
Posts: 501
Garage
That YOuTUbe clip pretty much nails the sound I get occasionally. Less after I put Redline 75W-90NS in the box.. (along with significantly better 2nd synchro behavior but that's a whole 'nother thread).

Quote:
Originally Posted by racingswim2006 View Post
What I am trying to convey is that a transaxle that has wear in the gear bushings or has a worn pinon shim (and thus excessive float) will rattle more at idle. The 1st and 2nd gear bushings tend to wear the most, and that was all I was saying.
Got it, thx. I thought you were describing 1st or 2nd ENGAGED and thus - the car moving.
- A

2007 Aston DB9, 1994 Alfa 164 LS, 1982 Alfa GTV6 Balocco SE, 1975 Maserati Bora, 1967 Plymouth Satellite convertible, 1965 Plymouth Satellite hardtop
76Satisfaction is offline  
post #45 of 50 (permalink) Old 03-16-2017, 10:11 PM
Del
Senior Member
Gold Subscriber
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: seattle
Posts: 12,018
My own personal experience has been that it did occur in our new transaxle Alfas, evidently due to assembly tolerances. Had to have our brand new Milano's transaxle taken apart on warranty and reshimmed or whatever. At least that helped.

Now with 100k miles on it, the noise is no worse although the transaxle still has what I would call excessive internal "on and off the gas" slop, but definitely better than when it was new as delivered for sure. And not as good as my 86 GTV6 which was nice and tight, with no noise at idle.

Adding a some Redline Lightweight "Shockproof" 75W-90 does a nice job of quieting down a transmission assy.

Del

Seattle

89 Milano (wife's daily driver since 1989, Shankle Sport)
91 164S (my daily driver since 1994)
94 164LS (~Q) (trip Alfa since 2000)
72 Morgan 27 (water time since 1976)

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6
Del is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome