Corvette C5/C6 transaxle in a high horsepower GTV6 - Page 5 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums

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post #61 of 100 (permalink) Old 02-28-2017, 04:31 PM
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Enlightening info there Alfaparts2!

In the first film a red car no.5 driven by Smith looks like the Ricciardello car. That car has been around for a long time, still racing it seems! Also earlier heard the car had mid engine V8 with a special non Alfa gearbox. So just GTV looks.

Here more recent clip with Ricciardello beaten by a much more modern Audi V8, so maybe the car sees the end of its career?

If you have a couple of photos of the interior of these cars it would be nice to learn how they are built! Mid engine V8 with Hewland transaxle?



G.
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post #62 of 100 (permalink) Old 02-28-2017, 11:13 PM
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Well, so no Alfa transaxle in those cars wit 600+ HP.
True in those cars case, but the one I looked at in NZ (not Australia) had just broken the Alfetta transaxle and they were flying one up from a wrecker. Now I admit it was nowhere near as good as other GTV6/Alfetta based race cars but it had a Chev v8 and an Alfa transaxle that was replaced apparently often . Would not surprise me if this car did not continue racing for long as it was hardly as professional build as others.

And yes I have no criticism of Alfa Romeo with this gearbox as it performed its intended design perfectly. Why should they have designed it for 600hp after all?
Pete

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post #63 of 100 (permalink) Old 02-28-2017, 11:23 PM
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If you have a couple of photos of the interior of these cars it would be nice to learn how they are built! Mid engine V8 with Hewland transaxle?
These cars are built as 100% space frame chassis and whatever body they decide is fibreglass, or carbon fibre, hung on it. I think the rules do not allow for alloy/carbon tubs, etc.

So relatively easy to build, ie. engine as far back as possible, gearbox/transaxle (the Saab runs an Indy car gearbox I believe) and whatever suspension you want.

Awesome cars but yes they do not start with an Alfetta and add a cage, etc. ... although that NZ Alfetta/GTV6 did and hence why I think it was not the best effort/build.
Pete

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post #64 of 100 (permalink) Old 03-01-2017, 03:02 AM
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PSK Good basic description of the build. I stand to be corrected but I believe the beninca alfetta started as an alfetta and was made into a sports sedan, rather than the norm of building the space frame first. Impressive performance and results given that. Back in the 80's they basically stuck a truck turbo on it and made hp. I would imagine it would have been rather power on power off.
Have a look at where tony sat relative to the engine. Just makes me laugh and think crazy.
Note the shift pattern.
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post #65 of 100 (permalink) Old 03-01-2017, 09:12 AM
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Nuts

Awesome cars and yes a lot of race cars evolve considerably over time. I assume there is an engine cover missing in that photo, no?

I'd love to build a Sports Sedan but ...
Pete

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post #66 of 100 (permalink) Old 03-01-2017, 11:35 AM
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How the heck did he keep from burning his left leg, it being so close to the exhaust manifold? Even a shield would heat up something fierce. Plus, if the engine blew up, yow!

Del

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89 Milano (wife's daily driver since 1989, Shankle Sport)
91 164S (my daily driver since 1994)
94 164LS (~Q) (trip Alfa since 2000)
72 Morgan 27 (water time since 1976)

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6
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post #67 of 100 (permalink) Old 03-01-2017, 01:13 PM
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Interesting photos there, I guess a bit of hot legs there and also the noise must have terrible even through a helmet!

I am posting an entertaining race with D. Beninca. At 23 I must say he was a very accomplished racer!


With regards to other brands who I think were more lucky than us Alfa transaxle users we have here a parallell Audi tuning community. I think they had the good luck of having an extra solid gearbox in a lot of cars, making it easyer to have bigger power projects. I am not saying I want an Audi, just that Alfa should have done the same. They should have constructed a transaxle with much more power reserve! Alas Alfa was bankrupt when they marketed the GTV6, while Audi had the resources to make a gearbox that could be used in motorsport. The gearbox is named 01E and used in many cars S4, RS4, S2, RS2. Every time I ask these guys are you using a standard gearbox its affirmitve!

A link to a project here:


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post #68 of 100 (permalink) Old 03-01-2017, 03:12 PM
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Which components of the Alfa gearbox typically fail with high power? Surely it is possible to make stronger ones? It is just a bunch of gears inside a casing after all. Hewland did that with VW transaxles in the early days and were very successful.

Current Alfas
2004 GT 3.2 V6 (Stromboli Grey).
2008 159 TI Sportwagon 2.4 JTDM (Stromboli Grey).
1987 75 3 litre (red). My first 75 and now my son's.
!989 75 3 litre (black). Shared project with my son.
2000 156 2 litre Twin Spark, ( Cosmos Blu metallic), my daughter's car.

Past Alfas
1990 75 3 litre Potenziata (black), now sold & living in Newcastle NSW.
1990 75 3 litre Potenziata (grey, sadly deceased due to fire).
1982 GTV 2 litre, red, (daughter's first Alfa)
2 x 1992 164s, (1 red, 1 grey).
2 x 1988 33s, (both red).
1985 GTV 2 litre, (white).
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post #69 of 100 (permalink) Old 03-01-2017, 06:17 PM
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Transaxles

If the source of Transaxles for the V8 racecar were wrecking yards in 1981 they were Alfetta versions which were weak cases, small bearing and little ring gear units which were the weak sisters to the post 84 versions. However all the V6 versions were a long leap forward in durability over the Alfetta versions.

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post #70 of 100 (permalink) Old 03-01-2017, 11:16 PM
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Transaxles

First. I have a concern we may have hijacked someones thread. If the original poster is annoyed (or even reading) please let us know.

I found a web site last night that gives a brief history on Hewland. I knew you could change gear ratios pretty easy however it dawned on my last night how cool that would be with my own race car. 10-15 minute ratio change for 2nd through to 5th.

The lost art of the old-school racing gearbox

Wikapedia also has a good history and lists all the box's and there load ratings.

Also had a look at some classified pages and they are not as expensive as expected. No I wont be buying one.

Plenty of manufactures for new type sequential transaxles so If people are interested they can choose a refined synco self changing hydraulic double slip variable ratio random drive solenoid valve eliptical 10 speed wizz bang I cant drive without this gearbox option.
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post #71 of 100 (permalink) Old 03-02-2017, 09:17 AM
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When I ran the supercharged 3 liter Milano it didn't have 500 hp, but did have 360 hp at the wheels on a Mustang dyno--that's 400 hp on some of the cheaper dynos. And I ran an Alfa transaxle built by Richard Jemison to have 55% lockup with double the number of diffy disks. Had very rare magnesium case, which Richard told me saved 11 lbs but made for an unforgiving case that could blow up from side forces if I continued to start autocross runs by dumping the clutch. To my surprise the drivetrain did not have a single failure after about 5 years of weekend abuse, using stock parts...well, the shifter was special made by Richard. He threw away that iso whatever thing and installed a mechanism that actually produced excellent shifts! No way would I have replaced the transaxle with a C5 transaxle, and my daily driver back then was a C5 Z06. Would the transaxle handle another 100 hp?? I doubt it...and I had the diffy case blow up on a '78 Alfetta years ago. Sounded like a grenade exploding underneath the car! That was from a modded 2 liter putting out around 175 hp at the crank...but that car got thrashed alot doing time trials and autocrosses and never received the attention like the Milano's transaxle.
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post #72 of 100 (permalink) Old 03-02-2017, 09:21 AM
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Alfetta parts.

Wow, random drive!

The thread starter actually wanted input on alternatives to the Corvette transaxle, so now I think we are right on the spot. We are past trying to tune up the original Box because it will not last anyway with big power or even big power for racing.

Aftermarket transaxles would be: Dutch Drenth which was already used in a 600+Hp application, then the Australian Albin transaxle which will be used in a 700Hp project. And last but not least the British Hewland transaxle used in the Beninca racer also around 5-700Hp.

All these transaxles are very expensive and mostly out the reach of private projects, so then cannibalizing a big power transaxle car could be a cheap solution. Although the modifying of the GTV body would be expensive also. So a bunch of not so good solutions!

Another photo of the Norwegian 3,2 turbo with a Drenth box and Volvo diff solution. The reason for this arrangement with De Dion and rear gear box is that in this racing class the suspension should have the original pick up points and the upgraded gearbox was to have the original position. So in this case front gearbox like the SA solution, and the Corvette drive train transplant was not allowed. So racing rules came into effect there!

Next would be to look at the Hewland solution used in the Beninca car. Any photos of that installation?

Any other solution, except random drive!

G.
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post #73 of 100 (permalink) Old 03-03-2017, 03:08 AM
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Transaxle

Here is a list of front engine rwd transaxle road cars. Good luck

1898–1910 De Dion Bouton
1914–1939 Stutz Bearcat
1929–1936 Bugatti Type 46
1934–1944 Škoda Popular
1950–1958 Lancia Aurelia
1951–1956 Pegaso Z-102
1957–1970 Lancia Flaminia
1959–1963 DAF 600
1961–1963 Pontiac Tempest
1964–1968 Ferrari 275
1963–1968 Ferrari 330
1968–1973 Ferrari 365 GTB/4 "Daytona"
1972–1987 Alfa Romeo Alfetta, GTV and GTV6
1976–1988 Porsche 924
1976–1991 Volvo 300 series
1977–1985 Alfa Romeo Giulietta
1978–1995 Porsche 928
1982–1995 Porsche 944 and Porsche 968
1984–1987 Alfa Romeo 90
1985–1992 Alfa Romeo 75
1989–1991 Alfa Romeo SZ/RZ
1992–2003 Ferrari 456
1996–2005 Ferrari 550/575M
1997–2004 Chevrolet Corvette C5
1997–1999 Panoz Esperante GTR-1
1997–2002 Plymouth Prowler
1998–2005 Shelby Series 1
2003–date Aston Martin DB9
2004–2009 Cadillac XLR
2004–2013 Chevrolet Corvette C6
2004–2011 Ferrari 612 Scaglietti
2004–2012 Maserati Quattroporte
2005–date Aston Martin V8 Vantage
2006–2012 Ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano
2007–2010 Alfa Romeo 8C Competizione
2007–date Maserati GranTurismo/GranCabrio
2008–date Ferrari California/California T
2009–2012 Lexus LF-A
2010–date Aston Martin Rapide
2010–2013 Mercedes-Benz SLS AMG
2011–date Ferrari FF
2012–date Aston Martin Vanquish
2012–date Ferrari F12berlinetta
2013–date V8 Supercars [1]
2014–date Chevrolet Corvette C7
2014–date Mercedes-AMG GT
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post #74 of 100 (permalink) Old 03-05-2017, 04:03 AM
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Yes we all know about most of those cars, question is are these new style gearboxes anything to consider? Ideally there shoudl be a gearbox with differential and clutch in one unit and also a size suitable to accomodate to the available space!

Many of the new European cars have gearboxes from the Graziano Company in Italy. As it seems all of teir gearboxes have the clutch up front, so using them on a GTV a rear clutch attachment must be made. Also the Maserati and Aston Martin V8 gearboxes have a limit around 490+ Nm so not exactly a big power gearbox. The Aston V12 gearbox can take 620+Nm which is better. Pricewise the Maserati gearbox is affordable on the used market, but I doubt the Aston Martins are!

Some Pictures and data page:

Actually most interesting could be the Hewland SL-200 gearbox for transaxles. This has a complete unit of gear, differential and clutch and is used in the transaxle Nissan GTR for racing. If size of this gearbox is suitable only price could stand in the way. Maybe on the used market!

SL-200 | Hewland

Doing a bit of conclusion here would be that getting a substitute gearbox to the original is a bit expensive and complex, only for the most dedicated!

So in that context making a 500-600Hp upgrade of the original gearbox could be less expensive and work intensive!

G.
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post #75 of 100 (permalink) Old 03-05-2017, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabor K. View Post
So in that context making a 500-600Hp upgrade of the original gearbox could be less expensive and work intensive!
Even with a much stiffer centre bearing plate there is going to be a some other limit to the TA's ability to deal with lots of torque. Add to that racing slicks and shock loads like curb hopping and something somewhere else will flex too much and allow a failure or another component will just be hammered too hard and break.

Interesting to note that the Hewland gearbox uses a pressurised oil system.
One idea that was mentioned somewhere on GTV6.com was to have an internal spray bar to pump oil directly onto the gears, especially the ring and pinion. This along with an oil cooler would do a better job of washing the heat out of the TA and reduce the potential for thermal expansion causing reduced contact between gear teeth.

I can't see the Alfa TA ever being a proper 500+hp capable unit, but they could definitely be made tougher more durable and abusable.

Slowly Progressing Vortech Supercharged 1990 Alfa Romeo 75 Potenziata. Out of Action Twin-Charged 1988 AW11 MR2. Current Daily Driver, The Glorified Taxi 2006 BF FPV F6 Typhoon.
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