Corvette C5/C6 transaxle in a high horsepower GTV6 - Page 4 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums

 13Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #46 of 96 (permalink) Old 02-24-2017, 01:15 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 2,306
Actually why the debate over +50kg, which would matter at 160 Hp but not at all at 700 Hp! Then you would have the extra weight on the rear Wheels!

Myself being used at the dead stiffness of my GTV6 racer with safety Cage, I think this roadcar will be just as flimsy with torque tube as with the original setup compared to the track car! Probably at lot of strenghtening will be necessary.

With regards to the engine I would not mind to have an evolution version of that one from SA!


G.
Renaldo and Duk like this.

Last edited by Gabor K.; 02-24-2017 at 01:35 PM.
Gabor K. is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #47 of 96 (permalink) Old 02-24-2017, 01:24 PM
PSk
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Tauranga New Zealand
Posts: 8,783
Send a message via AIM to PSk Send a message via Yahoo to PSk
Has anybody tried to stiffen the Alfa casing as surely that is the problem, ie. torque pushing the gears apart. You could cut a series of aluminium plates that fitted around the casing and weld them, basically adding ribbing and therefore strengthening the casing considerably.

But in this case, yes Gabor is right ... please continue and chuck this GM transaxle in
Pete

'71 1750 Series 2 GTV:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
156 Series 1 v6 ... and remember it's all just opinions
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
PSk is offline  
post #48 of 96 (permalink) Old 02-24-2017, 01:35 PM
Duk
Registered User
 
Duk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: South Australia
Posts: 1,707
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by PSk View Post
Has anybody tried to stiffen the Alfa casing as surely that is the problem, ie. torque pushing the gears apart. You could cut a series of aluminium plates that fitted around the casing and weld them, basically adding ribbing and therefore strengthening the casing considerably.

But in this case, yes Gabor is right ... please continue and chuck this GM transaxle in
Pete
ALFAGTV6.COM ? View topic - transaxle upgrade's
The week point of the TA has been identified as flex in the centre bearing plate. Tis distorts and reduces contact with the ring gear and pinion.
Naturally there will be something else that will then cause problems.

Slowly Progressing Vortech Supercharged 1990 Alfa Romeo 75 Potenziata. Out of Action Twin-Charged 1988 AW11 MR2. Current Daily Driver, The Glorified Taxi 2006 BF FPV F6 Typhoon.
Duk is offline  
 
post #49 of 96 (permalink) Old 02-24-2017, 02:00 PM
PSk
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Tauranga New Zealand
Posts: 8,783
Send a message via AIM to PSk Send a message via Yahoo to PSk
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duk View Post
ALFAGTV6.COM ? View topic - transaxle upgrade's
The week point of the TA has been identified as flex in the centre bearing plate. Tis distorts and reduces contact with the ring gear and pinion.
Naturally there will be something else that will then cause problems.
Thanks. Very interesting. A steel plate would be the next step IMO.
Pete

'71 1750 Series 2 GTV:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
156 Series 1 v6 ... and remember it's all just opinions
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
PSk is offline  
post #50 of 96 (permalink) Old 02-24-2017, 03:14 PM
Duk
Registered User
 
Duk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: South Australia
Posts: 1,707
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by PSk View Post
Thanks. Very interesting. A steel plate would be the next step IMO.
Pete
I was looking at some of the numbers for the aluminium that the OP used (6068), for his new plate. To get any meaningfull improvement in stiffness over the aluminium, you'd be wanting to go for something like 4140 alloy steel.
As the OP pointed out, regardless of the grade aluminium just isn't that stiff (resistant to flexing) the way the component needs to be.

With an alloy steel bearing plate, a pumped and cooled oil supply for the gears (mainly the ring and pinion) and a reinforced clutch housing, the capacity of the little Alfa transaxle does seam to have been raised considerably.
If a dog ring engagement gear set that uses wider straight cut gears could be implimented along with a thicker input shaft, the level would be raised again. But it's really starting to get expensive by this stage.

Slowly Progressing Vortech Supercharged 1990 Alfa Romeo 75 Potenziata. Out of Action Twin-Charged 1988 AW11 MR2. Current Daily Driver, The Glorified Taxi 2006 BF FPV F6 Typhoon.
Duk is offline  
post #51 of 96 (permalink) Old 02-25-2017, 12:08 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 653
my excuse for my poor knowledge on the tech. gremlins here.some one indicated no chassis stiffness is gained by the torque tube being it is mated only at the two ends by the front flywheel and at the rear with the clutch/tranny unit, and it is hung by rubbers to the main chassis points.would it be possible to fix the tube with crossmembers to the entire floorplate at certain points to really stiff the whole shebang up, and would this compromise the 'wheel always straight to the ground' of the didion handling?
cowfy is offline  
post #52 of 96 (permalink) Old 02-27-2017, 12:34 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 2,306
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duk View Post
I was looking at some of the numbers for the aluminium that the OP used (6068), for his new plate. To get any meaningfull improvement in stiffness over the aluminium, you'd be wanting to go for something like 4140 alloy steel.
As the OP pointed out, regardless of the grade aluminium just isn't that stiff (resistant to flexing) the way the component needs to be.

With an alloy steel bearing plate, a pumped and cooled oil supply for the gears (mainly the ring and pinion) and a reinforced clutch housing, the capacity of the little Alfa transaxle does seam to have been raised considerably.
If a dog ring engagement gear set that uses wider straight cut gears could be implimented along with a thicker input shaft, the level would be raised again. But it's really starting to get expensive by this stage.
You have sharp eyes Duk I did not notice that steel bearing plate in the IMSA gearbox. Possibly an extra Autodelta item reproduced from Turbo Motors, Italia. However the Project guy said he used the 7075 T6 alu alloy which is the best alu alloy also called Ergal and used in aerospace, racecar and weapons industry. Not much weaker than the steel counterpart mentioned by you. However Alfa chose steel as good enough!

Compare 7075-T6 aluminum to annealed SAE-AISI 4140

Obviously we will not see the Alfa strengthened transaxle to endure more than 400Hp approximately, as above that things can happen as have been reported here from different projects. Some years I saw a broken clutch input axle from a turbo application, so also the clutch input axle has to be changed. And then something else will pop. As we know now big power needs another gearbox.
A little daunting to see other brands pump 1100 turbo power into original gearbox and it still works after the abuse as nothing had happened!

G.
Gabor K. is offline  
post #53 of 96 (permalink) Old 02-27-2017, 11:36 PM
PSk
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Tauranga New Zealand
Posts: 8,783
Send a message via AIM to PSk Send a message via Yahoo to PSk
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabor K. View Post
A little daunting to see other brands pump 1100 turbo power into original gearbox and it still works after the abuse as nothing had happened!
Supposedly 1100 hp?, and also how long to they ever actually run it at 1100hp? and also how long does the gearbox last as we cannot be watching the car all the time.

BTW the GTV6 gearbox used to handle a few race meetings with Chev v8's at over 600hp turning them when GTV6's were used for NZ Sports Sedan racing.
Pete

'71 1750 Series 2 GTV:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
156 Series 1 v6 ... and remember it's all just opinions
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
PSk is offline  
post #54 of 96 (permalink) Old 02-28-2017, 01:27 AM
Duk
Registered User
 
Duk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: South Australia
Posts: 1,707
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by PSk View Post
BTW the GTV6 gearbox used to handle a few race meetings with Chev v8's at over 600hp turning them when GTV6's were used for NZ Sports Sedan racing.
Pete
I've heard that one before too, but I have serious doubts that it's true!
People have been smashing TA's in Alfas with a lot less than 600hp. MD on GTV6.com broke his TA (ring gear and pinion I believe) in his supercharged GTV track car and he't be doing well if he had 300hp.
Even if the gearbox and diff gears survived a genuine 600hp, and I seriously doubt they could, then the input shaft would have been turned into a bit of licorice.

Slowly Progressing Vortech Supercharged 1990 Alfa Romeo 75 Potenziata. Out of Action Twin-Charged 1988 AW11 MR2. Current Daily Driver, The Glorified Taxi 2006 BF FPV F6 Typhoon.
Duk is offline  
post #55 of 96 (permalink) Old 02-28-2017, 08:13 AM
Richard Jemison
Platinum Subscriber
 
Alfar7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Pensacola, Fl. U.S.A.
Posts: 5,780
Transaxles

Duk
A large part of component breakage is your country`s practice of starting races from a standing start.

These transaxles can take a lot of Hp & torque when driven with skill and common sense.

Building unusable high HP engines has never been a useful idea.

Richard Jemison
RJR Racing

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

"When you are dead you don`t know it.
Only those around you are distressed.
Same with stupid"
Alfar7 is offline  
post #56 of 96 (permalink) Old 02-28-2017, 09:11 AM
PSk
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Tauranga New Zealand
Posts: 8,783
Send a message via AIM to PSk Send a message via Yahoo to PSk
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duk View Post
I've heard that one before too, but I have serious doubts that it's true!
I was there and spoke to the driver and watched as they rung around NZ wreckers to get another as their current one had just failed. I asked him how long they lasted and he said a few races. Now these races were not long, say 10 laps but these Sports Sedans were quick. The engine was where the front seats should have been .


Alfa7, Rolling starts are about as exciting as lawn bowls. Hated them as a driver and spectator.
Pete

'71 1750 Series 2 GTV:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
156 Series 1 v6 ... and remember it's all just opinions
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
PSk is offline  
post #57 of 96 (permalink) Old 02-28-2017, 10:17 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 60
Sports Sedans

That's the class these cars run in. Sports sedan. You should have a look on you tube there is some fantastic old footage of the alfetta of Tony Edmonson (chev V8). Beninca's nord engine with 600 plus hp. Tony Riccardello's Alfetta. All the front running cars with hewland transaxles and a full space frame.
Huge hp and huge rubber with the driver trying to hang on at 100% not pooftered around so you don't break things...whats the point of that? I could put a mobility scooter transaxle in my alfetta and make it last a club day but gee that would be fun. You want to go hard you spend the money and do it properly that's what racing is however it's no fun for the people that don't have the money like me lol
Best sedan racing in the country because the rules are basically there are no rules.
alfettaparts2 is online now  
post #58 of 96 (permalink) Old 02-28-2017, 12:10 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 2,306
Well, so no Alfa transaxle in those cars wit 600+ HP.

No surprise because as most of us know the limit for aspirated engines is around 300hp standard GTV6 box and 400Hp upgraded box. Consensus about this here at least. Thats very good for a box which was intended 160-210Hp cars, but not much to play around with if you want more!

G.
Gabor K. is offline  
post #59 of 96 (permalink) Old 02-28-2017, 03:10 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 60
Sports Sedan

Gabor...Its fair to say there wasn't much alfa anything in those cars. Maybe the American equivalent would be can-am? That's a subjective call because AUS and NZ also had F5000 back in the day. Pretty much any big HP car (and open wheeler) back in the 60's 70's 80's ran a hewland transaxle. I'm off to Phillip Island Historic's at the end of the month and a walk around the pits its hewlands everywhere. I can take some pictures if interested.
Anyway to not get off topic I love my alfa transaxle but the reality is its limited. There are now more alternative transaxles than hewland.

I'm sure some of these you tube links have been posted before however its worth posting a few again. People know how it works. You watch one and you will find many more to follow. Somewhere there is a race with 1980 F1 Championship winner Alan Jones Driving a 880hp Porsche Sports car mixed in with some Australian sports sedans.

To Beninca's credit there car did have many alfa parts. Have a look at this compairison with the V8 Honda.

Tony Edmonson's Chev Alfetta.

Last edited by alfettaparts2; 02-28-2017 at 03:17 PM. Reason: incorrect link
alfettaparts2 is online now  
post #60 of 96 (permalink) Old 02-28-2017, 03:14 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 60
Transaxle

The back of the Edmonson car.
Attached Images
 
alfettaparts2 is online now  
Reply

Tags
transaxle

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome