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Differences of 1425101 and 1425102 to the final production version?

4K views 28 replies 8 participants last post by  classicalfas 
#1 ·
Dear all,

i have a question regarding a quote made by Bruce Taylor in his book: "Alfa Romeo Montreal - The essential companion".

On page 22 he quotes: "This prototype car, with chassis no. 1425102, was finished in metallic green and still differed in a number of minor details from the final production version."

Can anybody point out to me which were those minor details in which the cars 1425101 and 1425102 differed from the final production version?

Would be thankful, if anybody could help.

Patrick
 
#4 ·
Hi Patrick,
Classicalfas (Peter here) used to own the second Montreal show car. He'll probably be along shortly to highlight the differences again. The same questions was asked previously and in searching for his previous reply it somehow resulted in a new post about OKP Montreal parts...such is life with ADD.

Anyway, IF you were the recent eBay high bidder on this very early production Montreal, please don't send the "seller" any more money than you can afford to give away! The photographs of this car (now orange) have been posted over and over again with a convincing back story.

Mark
 
#5 ·
So far I remember - should N°. 02 have 5-6 different parts. We remember just to two:

smaller bananas

insteadt of Alfa Romeo= on chrome: BERTONE

unfortunately modern Bertone "b" on fender.

see pix.

Today we had been in Bielefeld, approx. 150 km far "Italian day". Many nice cars, a few young men with Lambo's and much noise :). We did not take the Montreal today for an extra stop we had to make. What a good decision! Storm, haigl and raining cats and dogs ! grrr. Dirk was sad in the morning when I said let the horse in stable, terrible weather is called at afternoon. He was happy to listen to his wife.... :) Horse is still dry and un-demaged like some other cars on way home.
Hannelore
 

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#6 ·
Hi Patrick, As Mark mentioned I did formerly own 5102. I had parked my '72 and the '70 next to each other and pretty much went over everything. First, the 6 rear side grill openings were were noticeably and larger than my '72, the inserts were also expanded metal. I have heard of other cars having metal inserts too. The rear valence just above the tail pipes had 2 square openings cut into it. The rear black panel was riveted and not seam welded. I did not notice the front banana trim being any different than other cars. Some of the exterior trim was not made from stainless steel, the front windshield trim being one of them and some of the belt line trim but not all. Some were stainless and some steel and chrome plated. The NACA duct on the hood was open for air to pass through but nicely screened from behind with hooks or tabs cast or welded with the part, the length and width were larger too, meaning no other NACA duct would fit. The front windshield panel also had metal grills and not plastic. The interior had a hand stitched center console, don't remember if the dash top was padded, but the black roof panel was certainly padded and not hard or stiff plastic like my other cars. The rear seat was also a lot softer padding than all my other cars. The one interior part that was very cool was the all steel door lock cover plates, these had two studs that passed through the door panel and secured with screws. Obviously hand made. I did correspond with the owner of 5103 and that car had none of the features this car had. I might have forgotten something, if I remember I'll post it here. Peter.
Oops, Bertone door sill plates.
 
#7 ·
From looking at the photograph of Peter's former car that Hannelore posted, another item that may be unique is the round opening in the horizontal console for the gear shift gaiter, although possibly other early cars share this feature. I've noticed the Montreal parts manual shows this piece with the round cut out as opposed to the square one normally seen. I believe Peter added the red leather gear shift gaiter and ash tray lid accent with the factory "MONTREAL".

The blue 1972 in my garage has the expanded metal mesh in the 'six side grill openings' instead of plastic mesh. It has the normal plastic door lock cover plates but they are painted entirely silver with no black decoration. Also the rear hatch hinge trim pieces are black painted steel as opposed to plastic.

Mark
 
#8 ·
Thank you all for the fast replies!

Are there no Montreal´s out there other than 5101 and 5102 who have "bertone" on the inside of the sill trim instead of the "Alfa Romeo"? Is this a signature feature on these first two cars?

To me the "bananas" on the press release photos of 5101 and 5102 just look like the ones on most of the other Montreal´s i have seen, including the one i have owned. Hannelore, could you please tell me, if you see anything i haven´t noticed?

I have not noticed a square cut out above the exhaust pipes on the photos i have seen from 5102 at the geneva show. They to me look just like the ones i have seen on any other cars. Peter, do you by any chance have photos of the rear of the car and maybe from the Naca duct set up as well? Would be much appreciated!

I have a couple of questions regarding the following items on 5101 and 5102 which to me look different than the later cars:

1. The airfilter box on both cars looks to be painted in a dark grey, rather than the later black, which seems to be used on the production cars
2. The vaccum box on 5102 also looks to be painted in a dark grey, rather than the later black, which seems to be used on the production cars
3. On the top of the engine cam covers on 5101 the part number is cast in and easily readable other than the later ones which seem to miss that feature, and it genearally looks like a different casting than the ones used on later cars
4. The rear hinge hatch had a cover which was made of skai and handstiched, do any of the production cars have this
5. The container of the water for the window wiper looks different to the ones used in prodution
6. On 5101 there seems to be the riveted Spica plate missing on the air filter box
7. On 5101 the Naca duct seems to be open and not closed at all

Does anybody have recent photos of the engine bay of 5101 which as far as i know is in the Alfa Romeo Museum?

Patrick
 
#9 · (Edited)
#10 ·
Dear Mark,

no i had no interest in these two cars, because of the ebay listing, i have to admit i was unaware of this. I am very interested in the history of these early cars, like i am in many of the other Tipo 105 cars, since i am trying to figure out, which was used during pre-production and which parts did not make it into series production.

When looking at the geneva photos from 1970 i was unable to spot the cut outs at the rear which the car has now, so to me this looks like a later modification. Also the seats are different and the engine bay does not look like back then. It would be really interesting to see what other parts have been lost or replaced during the years...

Peter, did you ever take a photo from the VIN you might want to share? And did you find any of the green colour on any part of the body?

I have also seen the round cut out in the center console around the gearbox lever in some other cars, so i would assume this could be a part which was changed during the production.

May i ask again, if any of you have seen any other Montreal who has the "bertone" on the chrome covers of the sills instead of the "Alfa Romeo" which is on most cars?

Thank you for your help

Patrick
 
#14 ·
May i ask again, if any of you have seen any other Montreal who has the "Bertone" on the chrome covers of the sills instead of the "Alfa Romeo" which is on most cars?

No but it is rare to see the inside door sills on a Montreal, probably more rare than seeing the V-8 engine.

Mark
 
#15 ·
No, I have not seen another like it. Patrick, you made a claim that 5101 was in the museam, I remember that when the Montreal forum was around it was determined that 5101 was in private ownership ant the museum was exhibiting another car.
 
#18 ·
One must wonder why the original hood intake was left open in the first place. Draining water down onto the engine would not improve things. Whether as cooling air or intake air for the engine, it does not appear that either was ever intended to use the scoop. Maybe someone thought the air cleaner would use the ram air, but decided against it?
 
#19 ·
Maybe someone thought the air cleaner would use the ram air; maybe a previous owner thought that he could improve on the factory design.

The air cleaner is a stock looking piece but it appears to be missing the stock ram air ducts.

Peter, would you know how many people had this car prior to you? The cut outs over the rear exhaust are interesting. Would you have a guess as to what purpose they would serve? IF 5102 is the same car as on the cover of the June 1971 Road and Track, I could not see any cut outs there.

Mark
 
#20 · (Edited)
Hi Mark, I believe I am the fourth owner of that car. You ask about the R&T cover car, well I really never thought so, but I looked really closely when you brought it up and now it could very well be! I have a pretty good copy, the right lower cover photo kind of fads out whereas if you look at the top photo on page 27 I think you can clearly see them. Alfa owned this car for 7 years, it was a common thought between some folks on the Monty forum including Bruce Taylor that this was Alfas test mule car, possible testing for better exhaust gas evacuation. Peter.
 
#25 ·
Hi Andy, How are you and how is Max and his Son? I very much regret selling the Montreal, I still have my blue one but really miss 5102. I don't remember his name but it is in a very prestigious collection, and it was exhibited. Someone contacted me a few years ago and sent me the photo, it is now the correct metallic green. Peter.
 
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