62 2000 spider engine - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums

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Old 03-12-2008, 08:33 AM
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62 2000 spider engine

I recently acquired a 1962 2000 Touring spider from a deceased relative. I was told the car is rare due to the engine. What makes the engine rare is at the end of the Alfa racing season there are left over race engines at the factory. These engines are then installed in production cars. If this is true, how do I verify this? engine number? The engine is going to need some work. Am I going to have a hard time finding parts?
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Old 03-12-2008, 11:18 AM
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The later cast iron 2 liter engines did not have a serial number assigned to them, only the type number. I think only the 58 and 59 model years had serial numbers. Also, 102 series production ended in 1961, so there were no 1962 models. However, some cars got titled as later years if they took a long time to get sold.

It is doubtful that you have a former racing engine. The cast iron 2 liter is the red headed stepchild of Alfa engines since it is heavy and relatively slow revving compared to the aluminum block 1300 and 1600 of the period. I could be wrong, but I don't think that Alfa ever raced one of the cast iron engined cars although someone may have done so privately.

Engine parts are available, at a price. I finally was able to source a full set of engine bearing for my car from Germany, but they were over 700 euros as an example.

All this being said, these are really nice elegant cars, and they are gaining more acceptance in the collector world.

Arno Leskinen
AROC-USA National Concours Chair
1961 2000 Spider
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Old 03-12-2008, 11:36 AM
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I'm not aware of any significant race participation of 2000 cars. The general notion is that the 2000 cars were underpowered. The 2000 iron block engine was in essence an upgraded 1900 engine. Some written and oral history indicates it was introduced either due to cost or marketing measures, or possibly because the development of the 2600 alloy engine (begun in 1956) wasn't ready in time when the 2000 cars that went into production in 1958. According to Busso (an Alfa engineer), the gearbox in the 2000 was developed in 1957 to match the 2600 engine under development. But it took until 1962 (the year your 2000 engine is supposed to come from) until the 2600 was production ready. Altogether, it looks like the 2000 engine was an afterthought rather than a design goal in the Alfa line-up.

Therefore, I have a hard time believing there was a 2000 race engine (and if there was, not one that was developed at the factory). However, Jay Nuxoll (twoliterlover) swears he was driving a 2000 Spyder demonstration car in Germany that had significantly more power than the production models. You may want to contact him directly, as he's extremely knowledgable about all versions of this particular car model and brought many engines back to life. He may be able to provide guidance and an opinion, but be aware that the engine may have to be opened up to see if there are any modified parts. He may also be able to help with parts.
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Ruedi
'63 2600 Touring Spider (AR 191437, the car that started the 2000/2600 International Register, reassembly in progress)
ex-'65 2600 SZ (AR 856043, resto project)
Maintainer of a 2600 SZ register (not the Dutch one).

Last edited by tubut; 03-12-2008 at 11:39 AM.
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Old 03-14-2008, 06:41 PM
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Jay Nuxoll sent me a PM yesterday, in which he mentioned the demonstrator car he drove in Germany may have been equipped with a 2000 Sportiva engine (and that he never was able to get any 102 2000 engine to perform that way).

First of all, I must admit he made me aware of the 2000 Sportiva prototype, which I had completely forgotten about in the context of possible 102 heritage. Somehow, I had attributed the 2000 Sportiva more to the period of Disco Volante and C-52 prototypes than to the development of the 102 cars.

I found Jay’s notion of the 2000 Sportiva engine very intriguing and looked up what Fusi and other books had to say about this engine. The first thing that caught my eye was the page below. The nominal 138 HP @ 6’500 RPM are quite impressive. Fusi lists also some interesting technical specs about the engines, which to me indicate the 102 engine is closer to the 1900 T.I. engine than to the 2000 Sportiva engine:

<table border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="4" summary=""> <tr> <td>&nbsp;</td> <td align=center>1900 T.I.</td> <td align=center>1900 T.I Super</td> <td align=center>2000 Sportiva</td> <td align=center>102 - 2000</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Displacement</td> <td align=center>1884 cc</td> <td align=center>1975 cc</td> <td align=center>1997.4 cc</td> <td align=center>1975 cc</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Horsepower @ RPM</td> <td align=center>100 @ 5500</td> <td align=center>115 @ 5500</td> <td align=center>138 @ 6500</td> <td align=center>115 @ 5700</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Bore * Stroke</td> <td align=center>82.55 x 88</td> <td align=center>84.5 * 88</td> <td align=center>85 * 88</td> <td align=center>84.5 * 88</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Compression</td> <td align=center>7.75:1</td> <td align=center>8:01</td> <td align=center>9:01</td> <td align=center>8.5:1</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Avg. eff. Pressure</td> <td align=center>8.86 kg/cm2</td> <td align=center>9.54 kg/cm2</td> <td align=center>10.07 kg/cm2</td> <td align=center>9.2 kg/cm2</td> </tr> <tr><td>Prod. Years</td> <td align=center>1951-53</td> <td align=center>1953-55</td> <td align=center>1954-55</td> <td align=center>1958-61</td> </tr></table>

Note: Since HTML code has been suppressed recently (due to spammers), the table above is now (as of 19-Nov-08) attached as MS Word document.

I can only speculate why the Sportiva engine was not used for 102 production. Possible factors are costs, long-term reliability, difficulty to maintain yield with production quantity (e.g. casting), availability of raw materials, and last but not least: quality of generally available fuel for the 9:1 compression.

Busso doesn’t mention one word about the 2000 Sportiva or development of the 102 engine. I find this remarkable, as the development of a flag-ship model must have been very important in Alfa’s product strategy.
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File Type: doc 1900 - 2000 engine specs.doc (29.5 KB, 102 views)
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Ruedi
'63 2600 Touring Spider (AR 191437, the car that started the 2000/2600 International Register, reassembly in progress)
ex-'65 2600 SZ (AR 856043, resto project)
Maintainer of a 2600 SZ register (not the Dutch one).

Last edited by tubut; 11-20-2008 at 12:33 PM.
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Old 03-15-2008, 11:22 AM
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What type Carbs?

One quick way to determine if it is a "sportiva" engine might be to see what type carbs are on the engine. The photo of the sportiva in clearly shows Weber carbs, while we all know the standard 102 engine had the dismal Solex types. Obviously, these could have been changed, but the presence of the Solexes would convince me that no further research is necessary...no one would build a sport engine with those cr*p carbs!
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Old 03-15-2008, 05:34 PM
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I say sportiva

Ah, yes, Ruedi. This car was the first Alfa I had ever seen, the cause of all this terrible disease I have suffered since. In my delerium I was not all that careful and observant. So I obviously knew so little about Alfa Romeo in those days that I had never heard of any sportiva engine. I learned about that engine only years later. But I know the car was the two liter Factory Demonstrator left over from when they were showing the body style before they started the run of regular two liter cars. It was purchased in December 1959 at the factor in Milan. It was clearly NOT one of the standard run ones already being manifactures which featured what is now the standard 102 engine with "neutered" solex PHH44 carbs. Why Alfa used those carbs will always be a mystery. I have heard that they owed Weber money, that weber refused to sell to them, and they had to get another source. I doubt that. I suspect there was a sudden jump in gas prices and the solex carbs running on siamesed intake manifold which fed two cylinders from the primary side most of the time got better gas mileage. They were going to be driving cars rather than racing cars anyway.

My ski patroller friend (we called him "Trozzi" or "Trotzy", but now know it was spelled Trossi) bought it as "the fastest and newest Alfa available" at the Milan factory on a three day pass from Bergtesgaden, using the influence of his uncle, an actual former race driver for Alfa Romeo named Trossi who used to race Alfas back in the early days along with Enzo Ferrari. He is mentioned in literature as developing a streamlined early Mercedes too. From the way my buddy told me the story of how he got the car, however, I gained the impression that possibly his "Uncle Pinky" from Palermo had mafia connections. The factory guys were told he was going to call to see that he got the car (and he did get the car). Trozzi was no car nut. He only wanted a car so he could attract more girls. He felt the seargent was cutting a huge swath with his TR-3. I ended up being involved only because he got a flat tire on the left side and did not realize there were left hand threads. He asked me afterwards to be his mechanic. I accepted only because that meant I got to ride around in the car and sometimes drive it. I later also realized that he had become aware that German girls seemed to always be in pairs and "pickups" would be easier with two guys. We would troll up and down until we had a strike. Then I would have to sit sideways in back so he could shift the knees of both girls. He would finally turn into a gast haus (to get some Vat 69 which he swore worked best to really get to know girls), and throw me the keys. I would drive around in that wonderful car and come back later, sometimes to find he had left me a message to pick him up in the morning, or on the following Monday morning. I drove all over, and could pass cars passing cars on the autobahn. I tell you no two liter since has ever been so hot. There had to be something special about that engine.

I guess I should tell you what finally happend to Trozzi, but I must be terse in this respectable forum. Suffice to say he was peremtorily courtmartialed one afternoon (Colonel himself came to get him off the ski slope) and kicked off the ski patrol for being too successful and perhaps too fertile (with two gals, sisters to each other, for cripes sake). I never saw him or the car ever again.


But as to the engine. It most certainly HAD webers, and not any lousy solex carbs. And it did have the exterior oil pump. And it was hotter than any of the twelve two liter spiders I have had since. Look at the photo of the sportiva engine that you show, Ruedi. It has Webers. The lines on the top of the cold air box run to the air inlet on the outside end just as on the older weber applications such as on the 3000 car Harold Wessel once had. Those are not the same as our current DCOE carburetors, but an earlier version. As for the interior bore and stroke dimensions and compression ratios I cannot say. It certainly looks like a bored out 1900 block. The Sportiva engine had been developed before the two liter, and were avaialble even if they finally did use a standard 1900 block with a modified head for the first 432 of the 102 series engines. Alfa was scrambling then for some good sales of some kind, and never hit the bullseye until the Giulietta. Even the Giulia with 1600 engine made the 2600 less desireable. I remember when they had to deeply discount and almost give the last of the 2600 spiders away because people preferred the smaller more nimble Giulias.

So, if one might now put a RIO 2300 with its weber carburetors and other improvements into a two liter spider one might get a little closer to the factory demonstrator. The two liter could have been a car that would probably have become a legend and respected and long remembered if the factory had decided to really sell it to the public with a sportiva engine. Instead they emasculated (i.e. surgically neutered) the car, foisting it with solex PHH44 carburetors upon the public hungry for a new car, using 1900 engine blocks to get started. After 30 years of tinkering and finally modifying intake manifold and using DCOE webers I got rid of the log some guys with Giuliettas would suggest two liters were always dragging. But it still oil starves my engine on long hard turns where the hot oil runs to the side of the pan so the pump sucks air. It could use the external oil pump and an oil reservoir. What a waste! A sportiva engine would have bolted riight in, just like a RIO 2300 would today.

Wonder where Trozzi finally did with that car, or if it still exists. I once thought his car chassis # would have been AR 10204*00016 since I was told that the first 15 numbers were reserved for cars done by special builders like Pinanfarina, Vignale, etc. But then in the last couple years I noticed that Drew Dawson, who is constantly buying and reselling these old cars, sold a completely stock two liter with chassis number AR 10204*00013. So that theory is all wet. Face it, I guess I really don't know much about all this, and can only surmise. Maybe you should just write down all of this on potty paper and use it for appropriate purposes. However, I do know the demonstrator car had webers, had exernal oil pump and reservoir, and went like stink. I can't blame the factory people for wanting to have the demonstrator car something worth remembering if someone came to try it out. They wanted to sell cars. Clearly the decision as to the body was ready long before any final decision on the engine. Someopne knew they had the sportiva engine available and thought that would be a neat idea. What would be more perfect. If only . . .
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[B]JAY NUXOLL [/B][EMAIL="jay@alfanut.com"], seriously Alfa diseased and ancient OLD Two Liter Lover, put together Seattle area's Northwest Alfa Romeo Club in 1965, and still feebly tries to tend a teeny sacred flame to his serpent mistress in the [B]ALFA G'RAJ MAHAL[/B], a home garage temple with more Alfa cars and parts than he dare list because of the disapproval of his shamed and chagrined family. (425) 641-2600.
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Old 03-16-2008, 12:09 AM
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Dear Sirs,

Many things are getting confused here. The 1884cc (single chain) type 1 "1900" factory hot rod engine appeared in the 4-cylinder Disco and in the Corto Gara (1952) with special tuning and essentially identical weber DCO3's and pictured airbox; the 1975cc block (a different single-chain block) type 2 "1900" , overbored for the Sportiva with DCO3's and pictured airbox; the type 3 "1900" 1975cc two-chain engine and ; and the 102 "2000 iron block" another new block with a totally differing cam & tappet design and head also, and the block derived from the late type 3 "1900".

Keep the revs up,
Laurence
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Old 03-16-2008, 12:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AR58SprintV View Post
Many things are getting confused here. The 1884cc (single chain) type 1 "1900" factory hot rod engine appeared in the 4-cylinder Disco and in the Corto Gara (1952) with special tuning and essentially identical weber DCO3's and pictured airbox; the 1975cc block (a different single-chain block) type 2 "1900" , overbored for the Sportiva with DCO3's and pictured airbox; the type 3 "1900" 1975cc two-chain engine and ; and the 102 "2000 iron block" another new block with a totally differing cam & tappet design and head also, and the block derived from the late type 3 "1900".
Thanks for the input, Laurence. I added Fusi's 1900 C52 engine specs to the table below. Fascinating how close the specs are to the Sportiva engine with respect to Displacement and Bore* Stroke. However, 20 HP more than the Sportiva engine with less compression seems to be indicative of a blower?

<table border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="4" summary=""> <tr> <td>&nbsp;</td> <td align=center>1900 T.I.</td> <td align=center>1900 C52</td> <td align=center>1900 T.I Super</td> <td align=center>2000 Sportiva</td> <td align=center>102 - 2000</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Displacement</td> <td align=center>1884 cc</td> <td align=center>1997.4 cc</td> <td align=center>1975 cc</td> <td align=center>1997.4 cc</td> <td align=center>1975 cc</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Horsepower @ RPM</td> <td align=center>100 @ 5500</td> <td align=center>158 @ 6500</td> <td align=center>115 @ 5500</td> <td align=center>138 @ 6500</td> <td align=center>115 @ 5700</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Bore * Stroke</td> <td align=center>82.55 x 88</td> <td align=center>85 * 88</td> <td align=center>84.5 * 88</td> <td align=center>85 * 88</td> <td align=center>84.5 * 88</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Compression</td> <td align=center>7.75:1</td> <td align=center>8.73:1</td> <td align=center>8:01</td> <td align=center>9:01</td> <td align=center>8.5:1</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Avg. eff. Pressure</td> <td align=center>8.86 kg/cm2</td> <td align=center>10.97 kg/cm2</td> <td align=center>9.54 kg/cm2</td> <td align=center>10.07 kg/cm2</td> <td align=center>9.2 kg/cm2</td> </tr> <tr><td>Prod. Years</td> <td align=center>1951-53</td> <td align=center>1952</td> <td align=center>1953-55</td> <td align=center>1954-55</td> <td align=center>1958-61</td> </tr></table>
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Ruedi
'63 2600 Touring Spider (AR 191437, the car that started the 2000/2600 International Register, reassembly in progress)
ex-'65 2600 SZ (AR 856043, resto project)
Maintainer of a 2600 SZ register (not the Dutch one).

Last edited by tubut; 03-16-2008 at 12:37 AM.
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Old 03-16-2008, 12:46 AM
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Dear Ruedi,

No blower, but RAM-AIR (like a Sprint Veloce Giulietta) and higher compression and more valve timing overlap. I worked on the Corto when Martin Swig owned it in the early 1980's, and the ram air went right in from the front side air duct through a rubber (tyre inner-tube 3"section) connector into the airbox. There was a rock screen but no air filter, and the DCO3's were s/n 0001 and 0002! The Corto was light and lively for a 1900 a joy to test-drive!

Keep the revs up,
Laurence
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Old 03-16-2008, 01:04 AM
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Aaah! This makes sense. Since Ram-Air requires a certain amount of speed (I'm guessing 60 mph) before sufficient pressure is built up, it's not really suitable for production cars that we expect to run equally well during summer and winter seasons, and from sea level to 10'000 ft altitude. It must be very difficult to tune carbs on a Ram-Air engine (involving many test drives ).

Somehow, I have a hunch that the Sportiva engine may have used a Ram-Air intake as well. But if so, would the engine have produced significantly more power in every day traffic, as Jay experienced in the 102 demonstrator car?
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Ruedi
'63 2600 Touring Spider (AR 191437, the car that started the 2000/2600 International Register, reassembly in progress)
ex-'65 2600 SZ (AR 856043, resto project)
Maintainer of a 2600 SZ register (not the Dutch one).

Last edited by tubut; 03-16-2008 at 01:27 AM.
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