Alfa Romeo single seater photograph

[carlo]

To start this new thread I think it is worth mentioning that I purchased the attached amateur photo at ebay-Germany. In the item description the seller wrote that he had the photo from a friend who's father worked for this team....
As I always like contemporary amateur shots, I could indeed buy it and expected to identify the car when I hold the photo in my hands.

But my expectations failed, as I still have no real clue about the car on the photo. You can imagine that I got intrigued by that
Here it is!



What I found worth to notice is that none of the persons on the photo wears a team-dress, further their clothes look like being from the post-war period.
The car seems to have a pre-war suspension, a remarkable long hood but no filler pipe for the water.

I was thinking of a pre-war Alfa that somehow came to Germany(East or West)/Austria/Swizzerland after the war and was modified in the way we see. But that's just guessing....
Stu, I also reviewed your thread at the TNF about the "Alfa powered Veritas" Atlas F1 Bulletin Board - Alfa powered Veritas?
as I took into consideration that the single seater here could indeed be related to the Alfa Veritas that ran in Germany.

Maybe someone can help to identify the driver? I also have no idea about him... But this could be an other way that helps finding out more about this monoposto.


Best regards
Ciao Carlo

[2000 touring sp]

Interesting picture Carlo.
I don't think its a 6C, but a 8C, probably a modified 308. The cover of the front axle could indicate that. The pontoons along the site, is probably for covering the exhaust.
The picture is taken on a woodland track. You have one near by, where you live.
Its not read, witch indicate it probably has been painted, maybe to Silver. Probably done together with the change on the body
Was there any accident pre war involving a Alfa Romeo 308 on race tracks in Germany, or surrounding of Germany.
the front script looks like those seen on 8C.
It must be Europe, as its my opinion that the ones that went abroad ca be accounted for

[jonas]

Very interesting indeed!

I can't see anything that indicates this car being based on any 308 parts.
But I do agree to the possibility of a pre-war 8C as a base:

+ The rear brake drums look like 8C (2300/2900?)
+ The bonnet fasteners are of the same type as used on e.g. 6C 1750 and 8C 2300
+The body pontoons probably cover a chassis that is wider than needed for a single seater (=> two-seater origin)

- The front axle/suspension is unknown to me. Definitely not 8C 2300. But this could of course have been taken from another vehicle type.

Apart from this I can find little else to go on. The body would obviously be home-made.

A guess from my side (or perhaps rather wishful thinking!) is that this would be one of the 8C 2300's that went missing after a short racing career in post-war Germany.

[carlo]

Quote:

A guess from my side (or perhaps rather wishful thinking!) is that this would be one of the 8C 2300's that went missing after a short racing career in post-war Germany.

[gt601]

The fellow on the left sort of looks like Lenin


Paul

[dretceterini]

Very interesting. I've never seen a photo of that car before! I assume it's German (built by who?) but with Alfa power. I would suggest you post the photo on the Atlas nostalgia forum, and maybe one of the German car experts can ID it.

[dretceterini]

Here is the response so far on Atlas:

Atlas F1 Bulletin Board - German single seater with Alfa motor

[2000 touring sp]

Here is a picture of one of the American 308. Just for comparison

[carlo]

Thanks for your help so far!

Comparing the grills of the 308 and "our" car, we see that those horizontal elements are missing in the mystery car.
Further the shape of the grill reminds indeed of the German Auto Union and Mercedes cars from the late 30ies.

And in fact we have no evidence that the car was in Germany, neither do we have any evidence that it was not. It is only a fact that the seller is located in Germany.
I sent him a message and asked for help concerning the photo. I'll keep you updated!

Looking closely at the photo, I just found this little detail:

Behind "Lenin's" head there are four loudspeakers fixed high on the tree, that makes me think that the photo was indeed taken on or at a race track.
Further there are two roadpoles in white with a black stripe around.
These poles could hint in fact to a location in Germany as those poles there look the same today.

Stu, many thanks for posting the pic at the TNF!
I lost my password there, further my email addy changed meanwhile and they cannot send me a new one
So I am currently just a reader there.

Best regards
Ciao Carlo

[2000 touring sp]

maybe this one can give some associations. For sale in Europe

[TimNuvolari]

The "German" car, could that be the one that has been for sale in the USA since 2003 that was imported from South America a couple of years earlier ??
Or the ex. Grist special imported into the UK in the 80's. Some very interesting articles by Simon Moore, Peter Giddings & others over the years. A lot of these cars went to South America, as many as 6 or 7 and eventually parts/ chassis/ whole cars came back out, at least 3 fairly complete cars have returned. Would be fascinating to know which one it is.
Cheers
Tim

[iicarJohn]

No association whatsoever with the special listed in posting #1.

[carlo]

To keep you updated about my activities, I got NO response yet from the seller of the photograph
And I think that as he did not answer until now, he won't do so in the future.
If he does, I'll let you know...

Further the feedback from the TNF was not a great help - yet.
Maybe there is still something to come in the future...some threads have a long life...

Quote:

maybe this one can give some associations. For sale in Europe

[iicarJohn]

There were quite a number of racing specials built in Germany, Switzerland and elsewhere during the late 1930's and then again postwar. Each case is individual and quite a variety of mechanical components were used to build some of them. It should come as no surprise that some of them also copied certain design elements of other successful racing cars of the time.

I believe I recall seeing a photo or two of a car that was similar to the one in the opening photo posted by Carlo. I can't be certain now if there was an Alfa Romeo badge on the front, as there is with Carlo's new "mystery". I am still scratching my head as to where it was that I saw it. However, when I find it (or them), there is a reasonable chance that it will only be a similar car and perhaps not the same car?

I also have recollections of seeing photos of similarly configured cars using recycled Bugatti and Maserati power. The individual story of each special is fascinating but very few have any direct bearing on the actual history of Alfa Romeo, Bugatti or Maserati. When it comes to individual cars, however, the interest can become quite important in determining the provenance of certain cars, particularly those that became dispersed, with various components used in other cars (such as perhaps the car in the mystery photo?) and then which have been partially collected again and "restored" in more recent times.
There are many good examples of important Alfa Romeo (and other) cars that have made this sort of voyage from yesterday to today.

[iicarJohn]

A simplified and brief overview of what seems to be known about Alfa Romeo GP cars of the 1930's. First the Tipo B Monoposto, popularly known as "P3":

Tipo B ("P3") N. B5001, a 1932 car that was raced by Alfa Romeo, engine enlarged, turned over to Ferrari (assigned SF33 and SF34??), engine enlarged again(?), parts mixed about with other cars on the team, converted to two-seater in order to win 1935 MM. Finished 4th on 1936 MM and then sold to Argentina, then to UK in the 1970's, then to Germany and then to the USA.

Tipo B ("P3") N. B5002, a 1932 car that was raced by Alfa Romeo, modified by them to suit 1934 rules and raced again, sold to Trossi (of Scuderia Ferrari, assigned SF 36) sold through several private owners/racers and then to Australia in 1938. Engine reportedly destroyed during WWII war-related events. Car remained in AUS and used Alvis, GMC and Corvette engines until 1960's when it was sold to the UK. Fitted with engine 50001 "removed from one of two Bimotore cars" and raced until the 1980's when it was sold to the USA. Then to Japan and back to the USA.

Tipo B ("P3") N. B5003, a 1932 car that became a "1934" car, turned over to Scuderia Ferrari (assigned SF37) then to France and then UK by 1936. Rebuilt 1938 into "Multi-Union" racing special somewhat evocative of German racing cars of the time. Rebuilt again almost straight away as "Multi-Union II". In the 1990's, the "Multi-Union" parts were used to build a new Multi-Union once the Alfa Romeo parts were removed to reconstruct the original(?) Tipo B that was sold to Germany.

Tipo B ("P3") N. B5004, probably the car destroyed by Guy Moll in his fatal accident at Pescara August, 1934. The engine survives in the Alfa Romeo Museum. The lack of any SF number on the engine supports the notion that the car/engine was not turned over to Scuderia Ferrari.

Tipo B ("P3") N. B5005, a 1932 car that appears to have remained in that form despite some normal parts-swapping among the various cars and Scuderia Ferrari numbering (SF38) that might imply a 1934 configuration at that point. Interim history unknown, but apparently went from Ferrari back to Alfa Romeo and is in their museum.

Tipo B ("P3") N. B5006, a 1932 car updated 1934, sold late 1934 to privateer and then 1935 to Scuderia Ferrari (SF39). Sold 1939 to UK (declared "destroyed" in 1941 Italian documents) where it remained until restored with 1932 style body and sold to Japan.

Tipo B ("P3") N. B50001, a 1934 car turned over 1934 to Scuderia Ferrari (SF41), sold 1935/36 to UK, engine removed "for use in a boat", sold 1955 without engine to USA, engine 50004 united circa 1958, restored, traded to Japan then back to USA. (Engine 50001 seems as though it was used in a bimotore for a time (or perhaps a boat?) and then was fitted to Tipo B N. 5002.

Tipo B ("P3") N. B50002, a 1934 car that was turned over to Ferrari (SF42, presumably) and apparently re-numbered "B50007" by them when sold to the UK in 1934. This is supported by the SF number "42" that also appears on "B50007". If correct, the presumption might be that Ferrari had better paperwork in hand for "50007" rather than "50002" ... or perhaps there was pre-existing "British" paperwork of some sort? Because Ferrari continued to work on the car for the UK owner, there is also the possibility of a chassis swap after the initial 1934 sale. Engine B50002 was apparently renumbered "B50003", so it could be that car B50002 was parted out by Ferrari during 1934-35? The car, numbered "50007" went on to become a sporting two-seater post WWII and was sold 1959 to the USA where it was restored 1980 to monoposto configuration and then sold late 1980's back to the UK. It should be acknowledged that the "other 50007" was known for many years as "50002", probably based on an assumption (and casual number checking?) since "50007" was already known ...?

Tipo B ("P3") N. B50003, a 1934 car that was turned over to Ferrari (SF43), sold 1935 to the UK, then France, then 1947 to Australia, arriving 1948, then to UK in the 1960's and then Japan in the 1990's and offered 2003.

Tipo B ("P3") N. B50004, a 1934 car that was turned over to Scuderia Ferrari (SF44), then to Nuvolari late in 1935 (probably as a settlement or payment of some sort) who sold it immediately and then it went to France in 1936 and then 1937 to the USA where it remained, the engine being used in a hillclimb racing special and the car receiving a Ford V8-60 engine for a time. Restored at least partially and sold to Germany.

Tipo B ("P3") N. B50005, a 1934 car turned over to Ferrari for 1935. Assigned SF45 with some parts marked "45A". Sold 1936 to UK, then to NZ in 1951 where it remained until 1989. To Japan and then USA.

Tipo B ("P3") N. B50006, a 1934 car turned over to Scuderia Ferrari (SF46), sold by 1937 to UK, then 1953 to NZ and 1990's to Japan.

Tipo B ("P3") N. B50007, a 1934 car turned over to Scuderia Ferrari (SF47) and sold 1936 with support continuing by Ferrari. Sold to USA by 1939 where it remained, until recently known as "50002" perhaps as result of an erroneous assumption discussed under B50002 above. Another car, also known as "B50007" seems more likely to have been born as "B50002", also discussed above under that number.

Tipo B ("P3") N. B50008, theoretically a 1934/35 car. No specific information is known about any car with this number except ... Numbers used on the so-called "replica" Bimotore built by Fusi for the Alfa Romeo Museum were supposedly based on historic documents. If true, then the implication may be that the original chassis 50008 was used as a basis for one (the first?) of the two Bimotore "Alfa Romeo" cars built by Scuderia Ferrari.

Tipo B ("P3") N. B50009, a 1934/35 car that was turned over to Scuderia Ferrari, sold 1936 to South America, modified by 1949 with nose resembling Tipo C, destroyed 1951 in crash and fire, very little remaining after.

N. B50010, a 1935 car, perhaps built by Scuderia Ferrari, first registered by them in January of 1936 as "nuova di fabbrica". Known from historic documents only, the paper trail ends January, 1938. This could have been a Tipo B, a Bimotore or a prototype Tipo C? The declared horsepower rating was "33HP" (taxable) implying 3.2 liters, making it unlikely to be a Bimotore unless it had been converted to "Monomotore".