Alfa Romeo single seater photograph

[iicarJohn]

A similar discussion will follow a bit later about the Tipo C cars. As with the Tipo B, the discussion will be complicated by claims that have been made by the owners of two cars claiming the same chassis number. In the case of the Tipo C, the claims are less historic, so some are inclined to treat those claims rather unkindly. I find it more ridiculous than disturbing. It also seems rather unfortunate that all the claims have muddied the waters so thoroughly. I find it unfortunate that two great cars with great Alfa Romeo & Ferrari racing components have been smeared by a dispute over a chassis number that neither one can likely claim as truly "original". One of the two did indeed have better documentation than the other, but that documentation does not necessarily relate directly to the chassis that was used in the restoration, even if some pieces from the original chassis may have been used in one or even both of the cars? Stay tuned until the drama is only partially revealed.

[TimNuvolari]

The history post Alfa Romeo of these cars raises several interesting questions regarding the veracity of the various claims to originality. The suggestion by various authors seems to have been that many cars went to South America and some parts would also have been shipped there. It would be interesting to know what was used in which car and what was built new in South America or modified to fit. And I dont like the chances of anyone trying to find out, would any of the main suspects still be alive, would they remember ??
Simon Moore wrote an interesting article stating that there where several type's of alfa chassis used in the period and that little information regarding them was retained, if so what chance does anyone have of getting to the bottom of this, but having said that if someone was to do a actual fact based guide to each surviving Alfa GP car I would line up to buy it, and I am sure many others would. So John what do you have planned for the next 5 years,
Tim

[iicarJohn]

Tim, I believe that Simon Moore is working on a tome that may satisfy your stated needs/wants. Don't know if it is truly in the works as yet. Simon would be the first to acknowledge that he has also written (as have I) some things in the past that should not be considered any sort of gospel. He is learning things all the time and so am I. Every time we learn something new, there is the chance that some statement we made yesterday or in the years before, that made sense at the time, might be replaced or modified by better data. And he would agree that sometimes we have trusted certain sources a bit too much.

The purpose of the synopsis above and those to follow will be primarily to stimulate discussion but also will have the hopeful effect of righting some of the wrongs done by creative catalog writers (and others) who are gifted at alluding to "truths" that are not actually as apparent or factual as they might seem. Some of those non-truths have been repeated in this short thread already, so it seems a reasonable place to begin a discussion. If it would like to be moved to a different thread, or a new thread, I am amenable.

What seems a bit amazing to me is how the car-trading industry has bought so thoroughly into the notion that it is not desirable to simply tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth ... when it is known. Instead, using the mystery that is inherent to the backgrounds of many cars, there has been a sense of mystery and excitement generated and transferred to cars that I think should be considered rather plain and normal. There is a sense I get that there are a whole bunch of marks out looking for other marks. The market would so much healthier and wholesome if it had settled on generally higher standards.

More to follow, but first I have real work to do.

[TimNuvolari]

Yes it will be interesting to see what Simon yourself and others come up with and in the future we will certainly glean much from the sort of research that takes large amounts of time and dedication. It is true that considerable stretching of the truth has taken place over the years (Lies, lies and damn lies). The pleasing thing about Simon's books is his acknowledging that the history is to some extent fluid and until something is absolutely proven, well it isnt.
I dont know but I would consider counting rivets, pouring over photo's and eventually getting a picture of what, where and when would be a somewhat exhausting process and getting a picture of what really did happen will be a great read. Thankyou John for giving your welcome insights and your views are always avidly read.

Cheers
Tim

[Alex]

The ex-Tipo B #5003 known as the 'Multi-Union' is the subject of an article in this month's Classic and Sportscar magazine. Apparently, the 'Mark 1' version of this car has resurfaced in Germany and the original engine is still in place, casting doubt on whether this car was ever split up at all. I suggest you find a copy ASAP!

Alex.

[iicarJohn]

I can't say what has happened in more recent years, but in February of 1996, I saw the Alfa Romeo chassis and crankcase numbered 5003, both bearing the Scuderia Ferrari number "37". Other parts (gearbox & supercharger) were marked "36" and other Alfa Romeo/Ferrari parts were also there with assorted other numbers that I recorded when I saw them. Parts-swapping probably happened on these cars from almost day-one. The mono-blocks were newly made but those parts typically have only assembly/build track numbers and not Alfa Romeo or SF numbering. This was at a restoration company in the UK and the restoration as Tipo B was either well along (as I recall) or had actually been finished and was back apart for some reason(?). The Tipo B N. 50007 was also there at the time and this is when I noted the incorrect chassis number that had been assumed/communicated in the past for that car. I probably have some photos around.

At the time, in 1996, it was said that the Multi-Union remains had been sold by Christopher Mann to David Black who had the intent of replicating the Multi-Union. If the engine in the "Multi-Union" today bears the engine number "5003" then one of two things likely happened. Either a new engine was made and given the duplicate number "5003" or the original engine block found its way from the restored Tipo B into the "Multi-Union"?

[carlo]

Quote:

There were quite a number of racing specials built in Germany, Switzerland and elsewhere during the late 1930's and then again postwar.

[jonas]

Then there are the Monzas of Paul Pietsch and Charly Jellen as well. As fas as I know the identity of both these cars are unknown. Did they survive for post-war usage in Germany?

[carlo]

Quote:

Then there are the Monzas of Paul Pietsch and Charly Jellen as well. As fas as I know the identity of both these cars are unknown. Did they survive for post-war usage in Germany?

[gtv2000]

May I remember the most solid clues up to now?

According to German racing experts (including 'uechtel'), it is more likely that von Brauchitsch had a conventional Alfa at Hockenheim 1947, but without photo, we cannot say for sure.

In the new edition of Moore's 2.9 book, he comments in the mysteries section that the Monza that was prewar at Mercedes might be (one of) the Alfas that was lost in Hungary during the war, after the train that carried some racing cars was under air attack. Now it's an assumption, and he may not know the presence of v.Brauch on an Alfa in Hockenheim 1947.

OTOH, the mystery car of which here has the special feature of a different front axle, and that fits with an ad selling such a car in Germany in '49: there, it's described as a 2.5 (?) 8-cyl (rebored or typo for 2.3?) with BMW front axle (thus fitting the picture) and "winner 1947 Eggberg and Hockenheim". It thus cannot be vonBrauch's car that exploded the engine in practice.

Also another trail, Bruetsch' Alfa, that at some point had an 8C2300 fitted to a 6C2500 chassis (independently sprung) is documented with pictures, and both with the 8C and the later Maserati engine, it retained the distinctive front suspension with trailing arms, so it doesn't fit. Yet Bruetsch was winner at Eggberg, not at Hockenheim.

[carlo]

Quote:

May I remember the most solid clues up to now? According to German racing experts (including 'uechtel'), it is more likely that von Brauchitsch had a conventional Alfa at Hockenheim 1947, but without photo, we cannot say for sure. In the new edition of Moore's 2.9 book, he comments in the mysteries section that the Monza that was prewar at Mercedes might be (one of) the Alfas that was lost in Hungary during the war, after the train that carried some racing cars was under air attack. Now it's an assumption, and he may not know the presence of v.Brauch on an Alfa in Hockenheim 1947. OTOH, the mystery car of which here has the special feature of a different front axle, and that fits with an ad selling such a car in Germany in '49: there, it's described as a 2.5 (?) 8-cyl (rebored or typo for 2.3?) with BMW front axle (thus fitting the picture) and "winner 1947 Eggberg and Hockenheim". It thus cannot be vonBrauch's car that exploded the engine in practice. Also another trail, Bruetsch' Alfa, that at some point had an 8C2300 fitted to a 6C2500 chassis (independently sprung) is documented with pictures, and both with the 8C and the later Maserati engine, it retained the distinctive front suspension with trailing arms, so it doesn't fit. Yet Bruetsch was winner at Eggberg, not at Hockenheim.