Alfa SF Cars - Page 5 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums

  #61 (permalink)  
Old 11-05-2007, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Odin View Post
The 1938 8C 2900 B MM's were Alfa Corse entries, same with the 412's. Don't remember well, the Engines were 12C-37, or 12C-36 unblown.

The Tipo 412s were basically renumbered 8c2900A chassis with 12c37 motors. They raced in both blown and unsupercharged form from 1938 up through 1951. Their first race was in 1938, but I believe they were completed in 1937. Tipo 412 is more in line with Ferrari Tipo numbering system than an Alfa numbering system, hence my thought that they might also have SF numbers. I'm not sure if the Tipo 158 GP cars are SF or not, as they didn't appear until 1938.
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  #62 (permalink)  
Old 11-05-2007, 09:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Odin View Post
The 1938 8C 2900 B MM's were Alfa Corse entries, same with the 412's. Don't remember well, the Engines were 12C-37, or 12C-36 unblown.

The Tipo 412s were basically renumbers 8c2900A chassis with 12c37 motors. They raced in both blown and unsupercharged form. Their first race was in 1938, but I believe they were completed in 1937. Tipo 412 is more in line with a Ferrari Tipo numbering system than an Alfa numbering system, hence my thought that they might also have SF numbers. I'm not sure if the Tipo 158 GP cars are SF or not, as they didn't appear until 1938.
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  #63 (permalink)  
Old 11-06-2007, 08:01 PM
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The Fiat is a special made by jorge Anadon y Paraná, Entre Ríos, Argentina.
It uses an aero Fiat engine originally in a race car in which Scandroglio lost his life.

The owner is Gianni Celli, from Italy.

Regards.
Cris.-
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  #64 (permalink)  
Old 11-06-2007, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cris Bertschi View Post
The Fiat is a special made by jorge Anadon y Paraná, Entre Ríos, Argentina.
It uses an aero Fiat engine originally in a race car in which Scandroglio lost his life.

The owner is Gianni Celli, from Italy.

Regards.
Cris.-
Thank you Cris.
It's seems like Anandon is starting a mass Production of 'lost' Cars. I'm dreaming of a Maserati 2 Seat Grand Prix Car. Is there any possibility?
Something like this.

Regards
Jörg
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  #65 (permalink)  
Old 11-07-2007, 03:51 AM
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Well, he is building 8C 2.3 Alfas, A6GCS Masers, and obviously the Bugattis.
I don´t follow replicas very much.

Regards.
Cris.-
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  #66 (permalink)  
Old 11-08-2007, 01:33 PM
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Hi

Hi
Over the last couple of nights I have re-read a couple of magazine articles and found a couple more bits of data
Julian Mazjub (Majzub??) confirmed in a letter to the editor of Classic & Sportscar that he had SF-79 a 1937/38 308C GP car and Peter Giddings confirmed that he had SF-64 a 1935 8C/35 GP car,
Peter also confirmed that along with the European cars there where at least 5 C-Type's (8C/35's, 12C36's & 12C37's & 308C's) in South America directly postwar, possibly as many as 10 ?? and of them perhaps 4 - 6 have come back out, his theory back in '01 was that several racing drivers would take a car to south america and race it til the end of that season and sell it to a local, how many would be the question ??, this also happened in New Zealand with old Alfa's & Ferrari's etc., so who do we know in South America that can go and find 1 of them
further - if anyone has the Bertschi book on Alfa in South America I would be interested to know what it says ??
Cheers
Timmmmmy
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  #67 (permalink)  
Old 11-16-2007, 03:53 PM
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Alfa Romeo, Scuderia Ferrari and Alfa Corse

Before this thread goes too far into the "could be" realm ...

Some of this material is presented in the 1994 edition of The Italian Car Registry so should come to many of you as no surprise. There are some updates here even though I've spent only a relatively small amount of time trying to collect additional S.F. data since that time.

This attachment, an MS-Word doc, should show what has been collected thus far (excepting perhaps any recent "news" found by Simon Moore?) about the numbering initiated by Scuderia Ferrari, first as a newly authorized automobile "manufacturer" in 1933 and then changing to the defacto racing arm of Alfa Romeo when it became politically necessary for Alfa Romeo to distance themselves from any display of monetary "waste". When Ferrari was granted "manufacturer" status, it is unlikely that the intent was to do much more than get the authority to issue certificates of origin, necessary to register a car as a car, tax it correctly and thereby be able to license it for use on the street.

Once the Scuderia Ferrari became the racing arm of Alfa Romeo, the Ferrari numbering became practical for another reason. A "retired" racing car that arrived from Alfa Romeo would need to be checked over for raceworthiness and gone through to make it into a functional racer once again. It would have become quite obvious that not all the parts were "numbers matching" at that point and during that process it would have beome clear that a system of easy identification of which part fit which car might be in order. The Scuderia Ferrari numbering system was already in place (and had perhaps already been used similarly earlier on?) and it was easy simply to continue it. Once the Scuderia Ferrari ceased being the racng arm of Alfa Romeo (with a fair number of Alfa Romeo employees having been involved no doubt) then the newly formed "Alfa Corse" took up where Ferrari left off and continued with Alfa Corse numbering derived in part from Ferrari numbering concepts. We should not assume, however, that there was a number "66", "67", "68", "69" or "70" ... until we are faced with some evidence. It is very likely that a small hole in the numbering was left. For whatever reason, there do not seem to be any Scuderia Ferrari numbers lower than 24. It may be that Ferrari actually initiated the system earlier on and that each member/team car was assigned a number. This would imply that the 6C1750 numbered "24" was perhaps the 24th car to have been a part of the team? Could be. Maybe not! It might simply have been a number ... or a best guess at the time. Or ... ? We can all tilt at the theoretical windmill but it will take time away from our studies. Now, if someone actually knows ....?


You'll note that the listing is not easy to read in one glance. This is because we are looking at a complex jumble of remaining evidence of a very complex set of histories albeit of just a few cars. Alfa Romeo has a very good excuse as to why any records they may have had no longer exist. War is hell. Not just for people, but for documents that can be damaged far more easily than people ... who are understandably first in line to receive attention.

All the best,

John de Boer
The Italian Car Registry
Attached Files
File Type: doc AR-ScuderiaFerrari-AlfaCorse-ARBB-iicar2007-11-16.doc (61.5 KB, 601 views)
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  #68 (permalink)  
Old 12-02-2007, 09:27 AM
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Thank you for sharing,
I have another question, the Tipo B's, in the Museo storico, are both recreated from parts, or is there a chassisnumber?
Thanks
Jörg
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  #69 (permalink)  
Old 12-02-2007, 03:07 PM
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Alfa Romeo Tipo B in Museo Alfa Romeo

One of the Tipo B cars is from the first series of 1932 and is numbered 5005. It certainly seems genuine enough and many of the parts are marked with the Scuderia Ferrari number "38". The "aerodinamico" mock-up is really just that. Last time I saw it there was not much in it that even pretended to be Tipo B.
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  #70 (permalink)  
Old 12-02-2007, 03:20 PM
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Tipo B - A quick highlight

Alfa Romeo Tipo B "Monoposto":
5001 last known in USA
5002 last known in USA
5003 last known in UK (rebuilt from parts of Multi-Union special)
5004 presumably the car destroyed by Guy Moll in his fatal accident. This car never passed to Scuderia Ferrari and therefor did not receive an SF number. Some of the parts, however, may have gone to SF as spares or in other cars?
5005 in the Museo Alfa Romeo
5006 last known in Japan

50001 last known in USA
50002 (see "50007")
50003 last known in Japan, for sale 2003 with dealer in USA
50004 last known in Germany
50005 last known in USA
50006 last known in Japan but sold 2000 at auction ... Where?
50007 last known in USA
"50007" (probably 50002 in origin) last known in UK
50008 unknown ... may have become bimotore as the SF number was used, "based on original documents" on the Alfa Romeo Museum's bimotore recreation.
50009 destroyed in South America
"50009R" recreation by Rodney Felton
50010 ... unclear as to whether this was "Tipo B" or "Tipo C" as the only trace found thus far is in period documents ... last reference 1938. The horsepower declaration implies a 3.2 liter engine.
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  #71 (permalink)  
Old 01-07-2013, 08:46 AM
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Hello everyone and Good 2013.
I read your post on the SF's Alfa Romeo and I was impressed by your knowledge.
I am looking for information about a "Botticella" which should have ran the GP of Germany (#24) and that of Brazil (#4) in 1937.
I only have a picture of an older FB's modelcar without mudguards but clearly with the SF logo.
Can you help me ?
Thank you so much for your kindness
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  #72 (permalink)  
Old 01-07-2013, 09:09 AM
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Ciao Gianluca,

the car you are referring to is 412004 with its first body.

The Nürburgring race was indeed the Eifelrennen on June 13th 1937 where Guglielmo Carraroli was DNF. There's a picture in Moore's book, but I have not scanned it.

I have the FB model, which I needed to restore heavily after shipping disaster "organized" by the seller:



Pictures of the restored model here

I should also have pics of the Sao Paulo race, but also not scanned and under copyright.
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  #73 (permalink)  
Old 01-07-2013, 12:21 PM
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Upon checking both editions of Moore's books, it seems that you are indeed talking of two cars here.

The car that ran in Brazil with #4 was the 1936 412002 at the Rio race. The car wore the prancing horse, and was sold there after the race campaign. Arzani raced it still with the Ferrari badge for a while, and I have not all the racing numbers to check whether, in private hands, it may have worn the #4 again. Not on pictures at least. Note that this is a 1936 botticella, without the front suspension fairings.

Then, the 412004 is, as stated above, the 1937 car that, after the Mille Miglia #150 was sold to a privateer in Italy, and then ran the German race. It has suspension fairing and no prancing horse anymore at the Eifelrace.
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  #74 (permalink)  
Old 01-07-2013, 12:52 PM
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Dear GTV2000, many thanks for your prompt answer and your precious informations.
After reading your post I went to read the Bertschi's book "Alfa Romeo Argentina".
I understand that the "Botticella" # 4, which ran in Brazil, is the same purchased by Carlos Arzani .. is not it?

Very, very interesting story.

Grazie Patrick.

Last edited by gianluca66; 01-07-2013 at 01:18 PM.
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  #75 (permalink)  
Old 01-08-2013, 12:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gianluca66 View Post
After reading your post I went to read the Bertschi's book "Alfa Romeo Argentina".
I understand that the "Botticella" # 4, which ran in Brazil, is the same purchased by Carlos Arzani .. is not it?
Yes, that one. Ciao Gianluca.
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