Alfa SF Cars - Page 4 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums

  #46 (permalink)  
Old 11-04-2007, 06:23 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 46
8c/35

The 8C/35 #50013 has been sold to Peter Greenfield aparently, in 2006.
When I visited Auto Restorations in Christchurch early this year they had Aba Kogan's P3, not sure which is his, definitely a second series car. And it had its engine out, I got to look at the chassis and most parts of the engine, very very cool.

Timmmmmmmmmmmmy
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #47 (permalink)  
Old 11-04-2007, 07:20 PM
Odin's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Since 1994 in Chile
Posts: 161
Brain Storming

I think Nuvolaris Monza was by Alfa and not by SF. For this no SF Number.
I don't believe, that all Tipo B's, of the first Series had SF Numbers, cause Ferrari got some, but not all. (#5006, #5003, #5001) So maybe 4, or five cars, between SF34 - SF-40, were actually 8C 2600 Models (Tadini and Trossi Cars). From SF-41 - SF-50, ten Tipo B's, 2 modified to Bimotore (SF-48 and SF-50). This happened all in 1934 and 1935. The next Cars, SF raced were the 8C-35, but they have a later SF Numbers (SF-63 - SF-67), than the 8C 2900 A (SF-51 - SF-54), which they raced in 1936. What happened from SF-55 - SF-63? Maybe 6C 2300 Models? There were at last 2, 'til 4 New 8C 2900 A's. for the 37 Season.
Could it be, that the SF Numbers, were only for Customer Cars and not for Works entries??
Jörg
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #48 (permalink)  
Old 11-04-2007, 07:32 PM
Odin's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Since 1994 in Chile
Posts: 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by dretceterini View Post
I believe the Bimotores were seperate "Scuderia Ferrari" chassis, and not modifed Alfa Tipo B chassis....
Of course, the Bimotore was by Ferrari, but I read somewhere, they used the Front part from the Tipo B and modified only the last third, to fix the second Engine. I think most of the Development was by Ferrari and not by Alfa, cause the Abessinian War was more important, Jano was doing Aero Engines, 8C-35 and the 8C 2900 A.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #49 (permalink)  
Old 11-04-2007, 07:45 PM
Odin's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Since 1994 in Chile
Posts: 161
Not Alfa Question

Stuart I have a quertion apart. Do you know something about this Fiat? It looks like a 1923 Strassbourgh GP Body. I thought Fiat destroyed all their GP Cars
Thanks
Jörg
Attached Images
    
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #50 (permalink)  
Old 11-04-2007, 08:47 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 46
SF Cars

Could it be that some of the cars, maybe only those that were raced by Scuderia Ferrari or some such were numbered there are a lot of 8C2300's that went thru the Scuderia but werent actually raced, ??,
P3's, that was what I thought, how many were actually given to Scuderia Ferrari and from what series ??
Other options I thought after my list were the 6C2300's, which as you say were SF racers, which didnt occur to me.
Will check something else tonight which might shed some light on the matter


Cheers
Timmmmmmmmmmmmmy
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #51 (permalink)  
Old 11-04-2007, 10:57 PM
dretceterini's Avatar
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow
Posts: 6,139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Odin View Post
Stuart I have a quertion apart. Do you know something about this Fiat? It looks like a 1923 Strassbourgh GP Body. I thought Fiat destroyed all their GP Cars
Thanks
Jörg

Looks like the LSR record car "Mistopholes", but I thought that car was in the FIAT museum in Turin, and painted red. I'm not sure what this car is!??
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #52 (permalink)  
Old 11-04-2007, 10:59 PM
dretceterini's Avatar
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow
Posts: 6,139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Odin View Post
Of course, the Bimotore was by Ferrari, but I read somewhere, they used the Front part from the Tipo B and modified only the last third, to fix the second Engine. I think most of the Development was by Ferrari and not by Alfa, cause the Abessinian War was more important, Jano was doing Aero Engines, 8C-35 and the 8C 2900 A.
One of the real Bimotores was converted back to just front engine, with a body similar to the Mercedes W154 GP cars, in the late 1930s...
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #53 (permalink)  
Old 11-05-2007, 02:40 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 46
Bimotore/ Unimotore

The famous Bimotore, SF48, had a history something like this
Scuderia Ferrari 1935
Arthur Dobson, UK 1936 or 1937 ??
Peter Aitken 1938 ??
Rebuilt as Alfa - Aitken special with only 1 engine
Wallington 1946
Tony Rolt 19407 or 1948
Engine enlarged to 3.4 litres and other mods
NZ 1950's
GMC Truck engine fitted
Gavin Bain 1960's
Tom wheatcroft late 1970's/ early 1980's
Restored by Hall & Fowler 1980 - 1991

And the surviving parts that were rebuilt into the bimotore in 1980's

Original chassis
Original front axle
Four original brakes
Original wheels
Original dashboard
Original steering wheel
Original steering column box and linkage
Original pedal assembly
Original radiator
Original gearbox
Original fuel and oil tanks
Original cockpit section
Original nose cone
Original windscreen
Plus many smaller sundry items used in rebuilding the car
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #54 (permalink)  
Old 11-05-2007, 04:48 PM
Odin's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Since 1994 in Chile
Posts: 161
I hoped, it was clearer to me now, but I can only say, I'm more confused. I was looking in the World Sports Car Racing Page, and found out, that the SF used minimum 20 6C 1750 GS-SS for Racing, some 6C 1500 SS and even an Austin Seven. Apart in Grand Prix Racing, they had a Duesenberg, several Bugattis and the two Maserati CM and I'm shure, that each Car had an SF Number. I can't believe, that the SF Numbers were only for the 8C 2300 Models. I think it was only a Number, for mantainance Record, to identify more easy the Cars. Maybe only the Cars, which the SF built new, from used parts, recieved the SF Number stamped?
The Scuderia was more a rich Peoples toy, with backing from Alfa, cause this Guys bought a lot of stuff 11 8Cs from the first Series of 50 Cars, not bad, apart several 6C 1500 and 6C 1750.
I think the buiseness for Alfa was, they produced racing cars, the Scuderia bought, developed and raced them and the Credit went to Alfa, it only went wrong, when Alfa startet loosing Ground against the Silver Arrows and the Supercharger was banned, from most Sportscar Races. There were left only the MM, LM, Spa and some local Races. Italy was banned from most European races and in generall, there were no buyers for expensive Sportscars. Lucy Schell put the money to Delahaye, to produce 16 Speciales. Tony Lago, made six Cars and sold only two. Amilcar made two Pegasees and transformed one to Streetuse, with Figoni Body. Maserati did a Handful of cars, Bugatti could hardly sell some. He had to use the 54 and the 59 as Sportscars. England absorbed most of the Cars. I think to Germany , went only 4 Alfas. Mercedes bought one Monza and a Tipo B, for Carracciola and Paul Pietsch bought a Monza. A single 8C 2900 B (412.021) went to Germany, was stored during the War and 'liberated' afterwards by one American Soldier.

I think, thats what happened to the 8C 2900. No buyers, they had to transform them to Racing Cars, for the MM and later again, back to Street use, with new numbers, cause the buyers wanted a new Car and not a Race prooven.
To avoid Taxes, they used the Old Numbers again. Alfa sold even after the War some. They were really hard to sell. The same with the GP Cars, who really bought a complicated and expensive GP Car, which couldn't win?
Maybe Alfa produced Parts, to assemble 8 Tipo C, but how many actually raced? I believe, only the private SF Cars, recieved a SF Number, not all.

Jörg
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #55 (permalink)  
Old 11-05-2007, 06:19 PM
dretceterini's Avatar
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow
Posts: 6,139
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimNuvolari View Post
The famous Bimotore, SF48, had a history something like this
Scuderia Ferrari 1935
Arthur Dobson, UK 1936 or 1937 ??
Peter Aitken 1938 ??
Rebuilt as Alfa - Aitken special with only 1 engine
Wallington 1946
Tony Rolt 19407 or 1948
Engine enlarged to 3.4 litres and other mods
NZ 1950's
GMC Truck engine fitted
Gavin Bain 1960's
Tom wheatcroft late 1970's/ early 1980's
Restored by Hall & Fowler 1980 - 1991

And the surviving parts that were rebuilt into the bimotore in 1980's

Original chassis
Original front axle
Four original brakes
Original wheels
Original dashboard
Original steering wheel
Original steering column box and linkage
Original pedal assembly
Original radiator
Original gearbox
Original fuel and oil tanks
Original cockpit section
Original nose cone
Original windscreen
Plus many smaller sundry items used in rebuilding the car

Ah, OK....the Wheatcroft car SF48 is what once was the ex-Dobson single engine car, and the museum car is an Alfa built in the 1960s "replica" using some real parts. Any idea what happened to the 2nd "real" Bimotore??
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #56 (permalink)  
Old 11-05-2007, 06:25 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 46
Hi

Jorg, I think what you are saying is only some of the Scuderia racers were given SF numbering and on that note I completely agree.
At lunchtime I went and had a look at the Orsini/ Zagari book Scuderia Ferrari 1929 - 1939 and it had several starting pieces of info.
1 - They said from 1931 onwards the cars actively raced by Scuderia Ferrari from the 8C2300 series (didnt mention 6C1750's) were numbered by Scuderia Ferrari.
2 - Prod numbers
P2 - 6 made. 3 where purchased by Alfa in 1929 and rebuilt by Jano and raced by SF in 1930, still owned by Alfa but modified and tended to by SF
6C1750/ 6C1500 - up to 6 where raced by SF in 1930
8C2300's/ Monza's - well we know what is available info.
8C-35 - aparently there were 6 built by Alfa/ SF and 4 built for sale to private customers. So 10 in total.
12C-36 - 6 built, all for Alfa/ SF use.
So I am thinking that the general rule is the cars modified/ built by Scuderia Ferrari were numbered by SF. The cars run as part of the team but kept purely Alfa were not renumbered.

Timmmmmmmmmmmy
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #57 (permalink)  
Old 11-05-2007, 07:35 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 46
Sf #

How about this, anyone ??


SF1
SF2
SF3
SF4
SF5
SF6
SF7
SF8
SF9
SF10
SF11
SF12
SF13
SF14
SF15
SF16
SF17
SF18
SF19
SF20
SF21
SF22
SF23
SF24 - 6C1750 - 1933
SF25 - Monza - 1933
SF26
SF27
SF28 - Monza - 1933
SF29
SF30 - Monza - 1933
SF31 - Monza - 1933
SF32 - Monza - 1933
SF33 - P3 - 1933
SF34 - P3 - 1933 ??
SF35 - P3 - 1933 ??
SF36 - P3 - 1933 ??
SF37 - P3 - 1933 ??
SF38 - P3 - 1933
SF39 - P3 - 1933 ??
SF40 - P3 - 1933 ??
SF41 - P3 - 1934 ??
SF42 - P3 - 1934 ??
SF43 - P3 - 1934
SF44 - P3 - 1934
SF45 - P3 - 1934
SF46 - P3 - 1934
SF47 - P3 - 1934 ??
SF48 - Bimotore - 1935
SF49 - Bimotore - 1935 ??
SF50 - P3 - 1934 ??
SF51 - 8C2900A - 1936
SF52 - 8C2900A - 1936
SF53 - 8C2900A - 1936
SF54 - 8C2900A - 1936
SF55 - 6C2300 - 1934 ??
SF56 - 6C2300 - 1934 ??
SF57 - 6C2300 - 1934 ??
SF58 - 6C2300 - 1934 ??
SF59 - 6C2300 - 1934 ??
SF60 - 8C/35 - 1935 ??
SF61 - 8C/35 - 1935 ??
SF62 - 8C/35 - 1935 ??
SF63 - 8C/35 - 1935 ??
SF64 - 8C/35 - Grist Bitsa from South America - 1935
SF65 - 8C/35 - 1935 ??
SF66 - 8C/35 - 1935 ??
SF67 - 8C/35 - 1935 ??
SF68 - 8C/35 - 1935 ??
SF69 - 8C/35 - 1935 ??
SF70 - 12C/36 - 1936 ??
SF71 - 12C/36 - 1936 ??
SF72 - 12C/36 - 1936 ??
SF73 - 12C/36 - 1936 ??
SF74 - 12C/36 - 1936 ??
SF75 - 12C/36 - 1936 ??
SF76 - 308C GP - 1937 ??
SF77 - 308C GP - 1937 ??
SF78 - 308C GP - Fangio Museum - 1937
SF79 - 308C GP - 1937 ??
SF80 - 308C GP - 1937 ??
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #58 (permalink)  
Old 11-05-2007, 08:17 PM
dretceterini's Avatar
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow
Posts: 6,139
Some of the 6c2300s might actually be 6c2300Bs, with the rear swing axle instead of a solid rear axle. I would think #1 through #23 would include mostly 6c1500s, 6c1750s, 8c2300 sports cars, and the modified P2. Some of the early numbers might include the Dusenberg, the Maseratis, and Bugattis though.

I wonder if the 8c2900A based Tipo 412s (chassis were renumbered) were Scuderia Ferrari or Alfa Corse cars, as Tipo 412 would be more of a Ferrari rather than Alfa style number. Fusi says there were 4 of them, but as far as I am aware, there were only two, S/N 412037/motore 412151 and 412038/motore 412152.

Last edited by dretceterini; 11-05-2007 at 08:21 PM.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #59 (permalink)  
Old 11-05-2007, 08:57 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 46
412s

What year were they cos. didnt Ferrari and Alfa split c.1937 or 1938 ??
and when did the 412 start racing late 1938 ?? or thereabouts
So I think just an Alfa serial for the 412 cars

Timmmmmy
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #60 (permalink)  
Old 11-05-2007, 09:39 PM
Odin's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Since 1994 in Chile
Posts: 161
The 1938 8C 2900 B MM's were Alfa Corse entries, same with the 412's. Don't remember well, the Engines were 12C-37, or 12C-36 unblown.
Like Giddings has Frame #8, I assume, there were 8 8C-35, but Alfa Recreated their Car from a Spare chassis #50012. I think Alfa swirched only the Engines, between 8C-35, to 12C and later to 308, with some Chassis improvements. The Chassis from 12C-37 and 316 were the same. Varzi went with one 12C-37 and some spares to ´South America, one Engine is in the the 12C-36 and the Rest? The 12C-36? Engines were used for the 2, or 4 412's and no one left? This means, there were only 2, or 3 12C Engines. Nobody wanted a 12C-36, for this they sold the Engines, with the 412's. (I want one)

Back to Tipo B. I've read, first Series were 6 Cars. The small one in the Museum #5005´, didn't fit in the 1934 Rules, for this SF never used this car. Another was bought by Mercedes. So there are 4 Cars, that Ferrari could use for 1934 and they built 11 more Chassis for 1934, Two used in partially for the Bimotore. That are a lot of Cars. The Question is, the Cars they sold were SF Cars? I don't believe, that Ferrari used more than 4 or 5 of the bunch.
Alfa had to sell something, they hardly sold Streetcars in 1934 and Racing costs a lot of money and Enzo was a Businessman. The P3 was in 1934 nearly obsolete.
I think #5006 (SF-33) and #50004 (SF-44), were Spare, or private SF Entries and #5002, #5009 (Fusi wrote 6 Cars?), #50001, #50005, and 50006 were Work's Cars, maybe Ferrari constructed some in 1935, cause the 8C-35 came very late and Nuvolari preferred the Tipo B.

In our SF list is missing the 158 Alfetta, built in Modena.

Jörg
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off










Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 2002-2011 AlfaBB.com All Rights Reserved.



SEO by vBSEO 3.3.2