10-31-2007, 07:19 AM
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I didn't realize the SF numbers went that high! I thought they stopped around #45 or 50. They probably include the 8c2900As, the 8c35s and even the 12c36 GP cars!
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10-31-2007, 08:58 AM
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This must be one of the first SF Cars. Maybe Varzis Targa Florio P2. Any Information and some more pics?
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10-31-2007, 10:07 AM
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 Quote:
Originally Posted by Odin
This must be one of the first SF Cars. Maybe Varzis Targa Florio P2. Any Information and some more pics?
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I would be surprised if it were. The SF became an official Alfa racing department from 1933 on. This P2 was bought back by Alfa (not SF) from private hands for the official entries in 1930, and as far as I recall never entered by the SF. It wears a quadrifoglio, not a prancing horse (btw shown 1st time on the 1932 8C2300s that won the 24h of Spa).
Also my understanding is that some 8C Monzas built by SF from spares carried only the SF number and no Alfa VIN (according to Moore's Legendary 2.3). In other cases, they had a VIN and over that the SF number.
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10-31-2007, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dretceterini
the 8c35s and even the 12c36 GP cars!
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Same frames for the two models you quote (and furthermore developped into 308s in some cases), so, yes, of course. It means that even the 308s, being older, recycled frames and chassis, did wear SF numbers, even if Ferrari was then head of Alfa Corse and SF the mere customer racing department from January 1st 1938.
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10-31-2007, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtv2000
Same frames for the two models you quote (and furthermore developped into 308s in some cases), so, yes, of course. It means that even the 308s, being older, recycled frames and chassis, did wear SF numbers, even if Ferrari was then head of Alfa Corse and SF the mere customer racing department from January 1st 1938.
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I'm thinking the first cars that DIDN'T have SF numbers were the 12c37 "low line" GP cars. A P2 SHOULDN'T have a SF number (unless stamped circa 1929-1930), as SF didn't start until 1929..
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10-31-2007, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtv2000
I would be surprised if it were. The SF became an official Alfa racing department from 1933 on. This P2 was bought back by Alfa (not SF) from private hands for the official entries in 1930, and as far as I recall never entered by the SF. It wears a quadrifoglio, not a prancing horse (btw shown 1st time on the 1932 8C2300s that won the 24h of Spa).
Also my understanding is that some 8C Monzas built by SF from spares carried only the SF number and no Alfa VIN (according to Moore's Legendary 2.3). In other cases, they had a VIN and over that the SF number.
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When starting building SF Cars from 1933 onwards, how SF-24, could be first Road registered in 04.04.1933 (Cherrett) ??? Maybe she made a mistake.
Tim told me that the SF Numbers could go back to the RLTF.
I think fron 1924 onwards, the influence of Ferrari was bigger in Alfa, than we believe.
Without any intention to hurt someones feelings, or to talk bad about Ferrari, my theorie is, Ferrari wasn't the big racingdriver, but he was the greatest organisator, motorsport has ever seen. Foremost he had a hughe talent, about selling the right stuff, to the right people. But he allthough had very, very good connections. I have a feeling, that Nicola Romeo would had never hired Jano, without Ferrari and the Fighter for the 'New Roman Empire', Mussolini. Italy was one of the poorest countrys in Europe, without a need for sporty Racing Cars and Fiat was a Giant beside Alfa.
-The same in Germany. The Connection to Hitler was Hans Stuck, not Porsche. The luck for Auto Union was, that Stuck couldn't get a Contract with Mercedes.-
Alfa was an important piece, for Mussolinis Warmachine, where he had the Influence. The Head of the Public Relation Office, for the new Empire, was Ferrari and Racing Success should show the World, bla, bla , bla....!
More bla, bla in Germany and maybe for this bla, bla more success in Motorsports.(Better Engineers) In France were no bla, bla, but a Guy who wants to own some Castles and Carriages (Bugatti) and this didn't work.
At last we have some of the most beautiful Sports and Racing Cars left, so we could enjoy them, even by talking.(The Question is, are they worth 50 Million lives?)
I think, cause Ferrari is an international Celebrity, no one cares.
Fact is Alfa produced beautiful cars, without a market and lost his independance and Ferrari got his SF Cars. When it all realy started, I don't know. Would like to know, which car was SF-1. Maybe somebody knows.
Jörg
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10-31-2007, 12:01 PM
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ex-"rogue Super Mod"
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Odin
Hi,
Thanks to Tim its getting clearer now. I was wrong in my thinking, that Ferrari built all the SF cars apart of the Series. It seems, that Ferrati used the SF suffix for every car, which the Scuderia used to race. Hope that Tim will send me more information.
SF-24 = 8C 2600 Monza #?
SF-25 = 8C 2600 Monza #?
SF-28 = 8C 2600 Monza #? Klaus Werner
SF-30 = 8C 2600 Monza #?
SF-32 = 8C 2600 Monza #?
SF-33 = Tipo B #5006
SF-44 = Tipo B #50004 Klaus Werner
SF-45A = Tipo B #50005 Jon Shirley
SF-46 = Tipo B #50006
SF-48 = Bimotore Donington Collection
SF-51 = 8C 2900 A #412.001 renumbered #412.008 according to Moore
missing
SF-52 = 8C 2900 A #412.002 renumbered #412.007 Simon Moore
SF-53 = 8C 2900 A #412.003 Botticella Spider
SF-54 = 8C 2900 A #412.004 renumbered #412.006 Paul Grist
SF-64 = Tipo 8C-35 #50011 Frame #8
SF-78 = Tipo 308 GP #50017 ex Oscar Galvez Fangio Museum
I hope we can find some more cars, to complete the list and to lift the darkness of Alfa Romeo History.
Jörg
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In his book "The Legendary 2.3" (published in 2000 by, and still available from, Parkside Publications), Simon Moore dedicates 27 pages to SF cars. Here are some excerpts, summarized information and observations from the book:
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Simon Moore, p.583
I do not know whether Ferrari assigned numbers to every "SF" car they made. Of the cars which they built up, only records for SF24, 25, 28, 30 and 32 survive. Just to confuse us, they also stamped the year onto certain cars, so SF33 (i.e. 1933) appears on at least two cars. I intend to cover five cars here, the first only briefly, as it was a 6C1750. Later, they gave SF numbers to the race cars which they received from Alfa Romeo, starting with the Tipo Bs.
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SF-24 = 8C 2600 Monza #?
Simon Moore mentions "this is the earliest of the cars I can find which have been given chassis and engine numbers by Scuderia Ferrari." Moore continues that this car was registered as a 6C1750 by the Scuderia Ferrari on 05-Apr-1933, together with three 2.3 cars that were used in the Mille Miglia. The original license plate for SF24 was MO 6310 (presumably MM race #63, Foligno and Comotti). Within about a year of SF registering the car, the car must have changed hands to Gurgo Salice who registered it under TO 31043. After the 1935 MM, Salice sold the car to Carlo Solveni of Venice, where it was registered in August 1936 as VE 7339. The car was sold in 1939 to Lancia in Turin (TO57813). Simon Moore points out that there is a bit of a mystery about this car that leaves room for speculation that this car might be a Monza chassis with a 6C1750 engine: Angela Cherrett lists this car as a 2300, but registration records point to a 6C1750. Salice ran the car in the 1934 MM in the "under 2000cc" class, which would confirm a 6C1750. No chassis number given.
SF-25 = 8C 2600 Monza #?
First registered on 04-Apr-1934 under MO 7139 (race #45, Tadini and Barbieri). No chassis number given. Registered in Apr-35 by Carlo de Praez of Bolzano under BZ 3610. Sold in Jul-37 to Arnaldo dell'Orto in Milan (MI 42867), then in Dec-46 to Ruggero Ruggieri in Rome (Roma 97260), then exported from Italy in 1947. That is where the confirmed history of this car ends. Simon Moore speculates that this car may have been exported to Argentina, where it may have been raced by Roberto Mieres in 1949 after changing hands from the importer Gath to Betinelli to Mieres' brother-in-law Nicolas Dellepiane. However, Moore points out he did not find sufficient information to confirm any history in Argentina and speculates the car may have been crashed there and bought for parts by Ernesto Dillon, who swapped them in 1973 for a Giulia TZ1 with the factory, who used the parts to build #2111012 which is in Alfa's museum.
SF-28 = 8C 2600 Monza #? Klaus Werner
Based on the 1933 SF GP car #2211120, registered on 04-Apr-1934 under MO 7140 for the Mille Miglia (race #58, Ghersi and Carrarioli). Sold after the race to Vittorio Belmondo in Turin (TO 33333), in Mar-36 to Alberto Filippi Gabardi in Reggio Emilia (RE 6405). Later in 1936, exported to Mario Massacurati in South Africa. Crankcase is stamped with #2211119 (a number belonging to a car sold in Roma in 1934) as Gabardi had reported SF28 as "broken up" in Italy in 1936. From Massacurati, the car changed hands to Roderick, who ran it in 1937-38 and sold it after WWII to Dr. Pretorius, who sold it to his brother-in-law Dr. Theron who used it as an every-day road car until about 1948, then had it sitting under a tarp until it was sold in 1950 to Pierre Kelfkens in Northcliff, who sold it to Hugh Gearing and his father, who rebuilt the car twice (with some modifications to the body) and ran it under license plate TJ 55902 in South Africa. The car was sold in 1986 to Klaus Werner, who had Paul Grist reverted the car to its 1934 appearance.
SF-30 = 8C 2600 Monza #?
Registered under MO 7141 for the 1934 Mille Miglia (race #48, Varzi and Bignami). Sold after the race to Luigi Rovere in Turin (TO 34248). Sold in Jun-35 to Giorgio Couter in Aosta (AO 3064, a license plate which was reassigned by Aosta authorities to a Lancia Aprilia after WWII), then in Sep-35 to Sebastiano Benedetto in Turin (TO 39443), who sold it in Mar-36 to Tullio Passi in Genova (GE 21138) who ran it in the 1936 Mille Miglia (with Barbieri, but the car failed before reaching Rome). Sold in Nov-36 to dealer Ditta A&L Rotondi in Milan (MI 55349), where the records end. Simon Moore speculates that the car may have been broken up or exported (possibly to Argentina) before the war but considers it "a lost car."
SF-32 = 8C 2600 Monza #?
Registered under MO 7138 for the 1934 Mille Miglia (race #46, Chiron and Rosa). Sold after the race to Austin Dobson of Surrey, UK who had the car registered under MI 49036 to have it driven to England by Bunty Scott-Montcrieff. Dobson raced the car in England and Ireland in 1934-35, and in the South Africa GP in 1936, then sold it to Peter Whitehead who licensed it in Sussex under PO 9962. Raced after WWII at Prescott by W.E. Ruck Keene. Owned by Derek Wilkinson 1952-54, then sold to John Mudd, who modified the car considerably for races during the 1960s (but kept the parts). When Simon Moore could not afford to buy the car, he made Peter Giddings aware of it who bought it. After "a very complex series of swaps involving John Michelsen, Paul Grist, and others", the car went on to Chris Mann, who sold it in 1992 via John Collins to Peter Agg. Sold in 1995 to Peter Gläsel in Germany. According to Simon Moore, this is "another great Monza." Simon Moore mentions that SF32 was referred to in the UK as chassis #2211115 (with crankcase #22111125) but he points out he can find no reason to give it that number as there are no road registration records exist that would link these numbers to Ferrari or Alfa Romeo.
Hope this helps...
__________________
Ruedi
'63 2600 Touring Spider (AR 191437, the car that started the 2000/2600 International Register, reassembly in progress)
ex-'65 2600 SZ (AR 856043, resto project)
Maintainer of a 2600 SZ register (not the Dutch one).
Last edited by tubut; 10-31-2007 at 12:35 PM.
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10-31-2007, 12:40 PM
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Thank you Ruedi,
like ever with perfect information. Peter Giddings still has another Monza, do you know which car is it?
Jörg
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10-31-2007, 01:21 PM
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I think Peter sold the Monza and bought another pre-war Alfa....a 308GP I think....
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10-31-2007, 02:01 PM
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SF Alfa's
Hi
My understanding is that most, not all, but most Scuderia racing cars were manufactured by Alfa so have an Alfa Romeo serial number, they will also have an internal Scuderia Ferrari serial number. Where this begins and ends is a mystery to me. However considering the P3's had alfa & ferrari serial numbers, and the Monza's built by Ferrari had Scuderia Ferrari serial numbers, ala SF32 etc.
Further the information I get has come's from Magazines, Simon's 8C2300 book and primarily websites like RM or Symbolic Motors. They have had several P3's, 8C's etc. over the years and while not perhaps strictly accurate at least its interesting and informative.
Regarding the 8C2900's A magazine (vintage motorsports '02 ??) had a fascinating article by Simon Moore who road tested Grist's 8C2900A which won the Mile Migglia in 1937 ??. He said in the article that there was 2 series of cars using numbers 412001, 412002, 412003, 412004, 412005 & 412006. This led to the first series being renumbered, and the second series retaining its number(s) although Grist's car seems to have started 412004 and then been renumbered 412006, I need to get the 8C2.9 book but cant afford $1200+ to buy 
I can give you some more data on P3's and stuff if you want ??
Cheers
Timmmmy
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10-31-2007, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimNuvolari
Hi
My understanding is that most, not all, but most Scuderia racing cars were manufactured by Alfa so have an Alfa Romeo serial number, they will also have an internal Scuderia Ferrari serial number. Where this begins and ends is a mystery to me. However considering the P3's had alfa & ferrari serial numbers, and the Monza's built by Ferrari had Scuderia Ferrari serial numbers, ala SF32 etc.
Further the information I get has come's from Magazines, Simon's 8C2300 book and primarily websites like RM or Symbolic Motors. They have had several P3's, 8C's etc. over the years and while not perhaps strictly accurate at least its interesting and informative.
Regarding the 8C2900's A magazine (vintage motorsports '02 ??) had a fascinating article by Simon Moore who road tested Grist's 8C2900A which won the Mile Migglia in 1937 ??. He said in the article that there was 2 series of cars using numbers 412001, 412002, 412003, 412004, 412005 & 412006. This led to the first series being renumbered, and the second series retaining its number(s) although Grist's car seems to have started 412004 and then been renumbered 412006, I need to get the 8C2.9 book but cant afford $1200+ to buy
I can give you some more data on P3's and stuff if you want ??
Cheers
Timmmmy |
Hi Tim,
More information would be great.
For the 2.9, I have the book, but is really confuse. According to Moore Alfa made 3 Botticella Cars for 1936.
#412.001 (SF-51) Paris Show 1935, rebodied 1936 to Botticella MM Car.Rebodied again to Spider and it seems to be renumbered #412.008 and ran with Sommer LM-37. Today Missing
#412.002 (SF-52) Botticella Spider MM-36, later rebodied to Spider and renumbered #412.007 Today with Moore
#412.003 (SF-53) Botticella Spider MM-36 , sold to Argentina
#412.004 (SF-54) Botticella Spider MM-36 + MM-37 Winner, renumbered #412.006
These are 4 1936 Botticella Spiders.
#412.005 Botticella Spider MM-37, no SF Number, rebodied in Alfa Spider and renumbered in #412.013
New #412.003 Botticella Spider MM-37, no SF Number, rebodied in Alfa Spider and renumbered in #412.015 sold to Tornquist Argentina, today with Fred Simeone.
New #412.004 Botticella Spider MM-37,no SF Number, rebodied Pinin Farina Spider, today Museo Nacionale
#412.009 Spare Frame Botticella Car, or maybe complete Car lost in South Africa.
#412.010 Spare Frame, or complete Car, another Mystery.
These are all the 8C 2900 A Cars, but the explaination is for me a complete Mystery. Why Alfa renumbers the Cars and use the old Numbers again? and again. Maybe there are 9, or 14 Cars. Its strange, that there are no recreations, with so many mysterys.
Jörg
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10-31-2007, 03:51 PM
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ex-"rogue Super Mod"
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Odin
Peter Giddings still has another Monza, do you know which car is it?
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Going by the name references in Simon Moore's book, Peter Giddings owned the following 2.3 cars:
#2111045 (Monza): 1981-1981 (obscure history of a crashed car that was fitted with an 8C35 engine).
#2211092 (Touring long chassis): 1981-1982 (converted to Zagato LeMans body in the 1980s).
#2311218 (Monza): 1983-1996 (restored by Peter Giddings, John de Boer and Phil Reilly).
#2311220 (Saloon by Corsica): 1968-1969 (now with Touring-style body).
#2311240 (Carlington drophead coupe): 1969-1970.
#2311243 (3-seater cabriolet): 1963-1966 (Giddings shortened chassis and fit Monza body).
It appears he was not listed as a current owner when the book was published in 2000.
__________________
Ruedi
'63 2600 Touring Spider (AR 191437, the car that started the 2000/2600 International Register, reassembly in progress)
ex-'65 2600 SZ (AR 856043, resto project)
Maintainer of a 2600 SZ register (not the Dutch one).
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10-31-2007, 07:12 PM
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Some more
SF-63 = 8C-35 #50015
SF-64 = 8C-35 #50014 Frame #4 Laurence Auriana
SF-65 = 8C-35 #50013 Frame #5 Peter Giddings
? 8C-35 #50011 Frame #8 Peter Giddings
12C-36 #50012 Museo Storico wrong Engine
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10-31-2007, 07:34 PM
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Alfa SF's
Several interesting points regarding these cars and there histories, I wonder what cars SF1 - Sf23 were ??, could they be early Alfa racers that ferrari had some involvement with or are they cars that the Ferrari team raced maybe 6C's ??.
Will send more information tomorrow
Timmmmmy
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10-31-2007, 07:50 PM
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If SF numbering started with SF1, it might just be that it was a P2 Targa Florio or similar version, with the spare wheel at the rear. I have nothing on any car with numbers SF1 through SF33. Anything as to SF numbers on the 8c2300 and 8c2600 Monzas would be pure speculation...
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