Shouldn't we be more tolerant?

[dretceterini]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hansgta You should stop smoking drugs ! Simon Kindston is going to be very upset by your post !

[Zunige]

hansgta,
I don't know why you keep posting in a very ungentlemanly manner, but that says more about you and who you are than anything else...

Best regards,

[dretceterini]

Actually, it was Odin and not HansGTA who claimed that the ex-Kauss cars are recreations...

Originally Posted by Odin
Most of the Tipo 33, of Peter Kauss, were recreated in Germany.
Jörg

[Odin]

Here we go again.
Peters Tipo 33, were built up in the shop, from Erwin Derichs, in Mayen, Germany, from parts, ask him. I was there, several times and saw it. There was no complete car, entering the shop. Same problem, with PK's Giulia TZ-2 #117, no documentation, no history.
Peter did an exellent job, with his collection and opening it up for public, but not all cars were 100 % real. Made up from period parts and I feel very sad, that his collection, is destroyed by someone, to get richer.
I like original cars and their history, but I like 'Continuation' cars too, without their history.
So when Mr. Kidstone, found the missing chassisnumbers, great and it would be easy, to trade back the history of the cars, cause they are only 40 years old. Some period owners, should be living. But I think, I was reading, that he is assuming the numbers and that means to me, you have to be carefull and you have to do your own research, if you like to buy this cars, but I like them.
Otherwise, why the owner, OWNER of an auctionhouse, is selling this important T 33 collection, by a dealer???
Regards
Jörg

[Odin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hansgta You should stop smoking drugs ! Simon Kindston is going to be very upset by your post !

[Pat Braden]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Odin Here we go again. Peters Tipo 33, were built up in the shop, from Erwin Derichs, in Mayen, Germany, from parts, ask him. I was there, several times and saw it. There was no complete car, entering the shop. Same problem, with PK's Giulia TZ-2 #117, no documentation, no history. Peter did an exellent job, with his collection and opening it up for public, but not all cars were 100 % real. Made up from period parts and I feel very sad, that his collection, is destroyed by someone, to get richer. I like original cars and their history, but I like 'Continuation' cars too, without their history. So when Mr. Kidstone, found the missing chassisnumbers, great and it would be easy, to trade back the history of the cars, cause they are only 40 years old. Some period owners, should be living. But I think, I was reading, that he is assuming the numbers and that means to me, you have to be carefull and you have to do your own research, if you like to buy this cars, but I like them. Otherwise, why the owner, OWNER of an auctionhouse, is selling this important T 33 collection, by a dealer??? Regards Jörg

[Odin]

There are so many cars, built up from period parts. I've heard that PK bought original parts and built up some cars of them. Same did a Person in the US, who owns 5 T 33. Same did Giordanengo, but that are replicas??
How many important cars are built up, around a chassis number? Nobody could , or will tell us.
I think, PK wanted to have the complete T 33 range, for his own use, for some cars, he never mentioned a chassis number. Whats happens now, somebody wants cash. Can't blame PK.
Regards
Jörg

[1300GTJunior]

I don't fully understand the scene, so bear with me here.

I'm 35 years old - the Targa Florio was finished, the Mille Miglia, La Carrera Panamerica, infact all the classic endurance road races were gone - with the exception of Le Mans, by the time I was born. The golden age of 20s, 30s, 50s and 60s cars had all past.

For generations like my own, it's like being born into a world, where all the animals are extinct and the only place to see the animals is in museums as taxidermy exhibits.

Except, that's not how it is, precisely because of classic FIA racing, enthusiasts, Goodwood festival of speed, re-creators, restorers and replica builders.

If it wasn't for the efforts of all of these, I'd never have experienced the sights, sounds and smells of these machines - even just as a spectator. I'd never have experienced the thrill of being overtaken by a Porsche 917 at Spa, the sound, the air wash, my car rocked by it's wailing wall of sound wake.

At what point is a restoration, really a recreation? I don't know. I'd guess that you cross the line, when you don't even possess the original chassis.

Of course, all vehicles have a worth to someone. I wouldn't part with my Bertone for all the tea in China, but I'm sure Mr Kidstone wouldn't give it the time of day, referring to them in Octane Magazine recently in not particularly flattering terms.

I suppose the issue to ones who move in these circles is that the relative value is built from provenance that proves that the vehicle in question possesses historical significance and this is multiplied by it's relative rarity.

Thus, if one can't prove the provenance, then surely the point above is moot - the car's value is on the eye of the beholder, just like my Bertone. I paid Euro 11,500 for mine, if it were Euro 14,000 I'd probably have not bothered to buy it, but since then, I had it independently valued for insurance purposes, before working on it and the valuation came back as Euro 17,500 - I'm pleased, but wouldn't have thought it is really worth that in this market - it really is eye of the beholder stuff.

However, passing a vehicle on, as having provenience, when it doesn't is just fraud - pure and simple.

[richardowen]

How many times have I got excited over a car and later discovered it was a replica... However, I'd probably feel a lot better about flogging a replica around a track. There's plenty of cars which are so accurate that it almost doesn't matter. Take for instance the DB4 Zagato Sanction II, Rosani's Lancia D24s or Fusi's BiMotor.

If we ever achieve good steel 3D printing, then the game will radically change:

3D printing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[backfeeder]

Bravo Mark A./1300GTJunior,
Eloquently put, I second your prospective.

[SpiderWebb]

This is not an Alfa and has nothing to do with Alfa History. However, there are some similarities. I hope this is not considered a highjacking of the thread. I am trying to point out the dificulty authenticating rare cars.

This is a tale of torment and confusion. Only the brave (or masochistic) should read any further…

The original Batman Television show featured the wonderful black Batmobile car. But, in reality it was first a ‘Future Car’ from Lincoln, a division of the Ford Motor Company, called the ‘Futura’ (see black and white photo 1).

George Barris got hold of this rare automobile after it was featured in the film ‘It started with a kiss’. Some say he put a Legal ‘lean’ on the car and confiscated it. Here is where it gets good. He needed a cool car for the new Batman television show, so he MODIFIED (Kustomized) the Futura into the Batmobile (see photo 2).

Some say that was sacrilege. Others call it divine inspiration. I’m glad he made the Batmobile, but my heart aches when looking at it, and I wonder what it would be like to drive around in the Futura.

TRIVIA: Some other grand soul felt the same way I did and made a perfect copy of the Batmobile and ended up back-engineering it into a replica of the Futura.

It gets more interesting. He ‘patented’ the Batmobile design. Then he made fiberglass copies of the car (The photo of the fiberglass copy is of recent vintage. photo 3). Some say there were 9 of these. These copies used to be identified because they lacked the rear portion of the bubble canopy for some reason (see photo 4). By now I am sure most if not all have the full bubble back.

In the mean time other 'car guys' decided they wanted a Batmobile of their own, so they built them in their garage at home and in shops all over the world (see photo 5). Some were OK, others were AWFUL. Because George had patented the design, he went after these builders and confiscated many of them. I saw one someone had made out of an old Ford T-Bird. It was not even close to the original, but there it was, in Georges back lot.

Eventually Georges Licensing agreement with the comic book people ran out and he could no longer put the ‘bat logos’ on the car and call it a ‘Batmobile’.

Then Jay Ohrberg picked up the license and created an ALL NEW Batmobile from scratch using an old ford as a base. So now his car is the OFFICIAL BATMOBILE!

Today it seems to be a free for all, with all of the new versions out there. It is a real nightmare trying to figure out what is real and what is fake.

So what is sitting in Georges Garage in Burbank? The Futura, Batmobile, or Black Kustom car that was once on TV?

Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive!