Alfa 412 Vignale

[Odin]

Thanks John, for sharing this.
Thats clearing my thoughts, I had all the time. There were 10 Type C Frames and they used it for different kind of Cars, maybe not all of them and at last 3 Type 12C-37 Frames, which were used in the Tipo 308 again. Now it depends on how many 12C Engines, were built, to find out, how many Tipo 412 were armed, but maybe they put only for a while an 12C Engine in an 8C 2900 Chassis and and sold it later as 8C 2900 B, rebodied. That could be the reason, that some are talking, about 4 Cars.
Regards
Jörg

[Odin]

Another thought,
Simon Moore wrote in his 2.9 Book, that the MM Cars, from 1938, are having a different kind of Chassis. Did Anybody ever compare these Chassis, with the Type C Frames? Could it be, that Alfa used some remaining, unused Type C Chassis, with other crossmembers, for the MM Cars?
Regards
Jörg

[iicarJohn]

Please note that all of the thoughts I have expressed thus far in this thread are based on the observations made by myself of just a few cars and engines, all of which have some murkiness in their past. This makes all of the "data" possibly suspect and I could have any possible interpretation of the data very wrong! If one additional car or engine could be inspected, the implications might shift dramatically or not at all ... and still we might not be certain of an actual story. Once again, we are not yet ready to present any kind of case and it would be premature to call a jury.

It is far too early to guess with any assurance at a production number of either chassis or engines in any of these series and I would say that we should not even assume that all similarly tagged or labelled cars necessarily shared common specifications, particularly late in the game. It may be that part of our confusion comes from the (possible) fact that all cars were just a bit different and yet there was already a (somewhat teutonic?) desire to imply greater standardization in the production than that which was actually built?

[johnei]

Look at all these parts I saw in a garage recently.

[johnei]

Some more.

[dretceterini]

Interesting

[iicarJohn]

Johnei's photos are certainly intriguing, but the "AR51202" number seems just a bit too pat and is certainly not normally found in that context. But perhaps we should expect the unexected? I wonder if all the parts actually go together? What about all the missing stuff that we would normally consider far more important than the parts that we can see in the photos? On the face of it, it would seem that a seed is being (has been?) planted?

To be clear, I do not agree necessarily with the the numbers stated by Odin in his posting of December 8. I think it is far too early in the study to make any kind of conclusions about actual production numbers of any particular component (chassis design included) in these sorts of cars and I am not convinced that the tipo designations and assigned chassis numbers were necessarily "pure" in the sense that all cars, or even a few of them, were "equal" at origin. In fact, I am quite convinced that almost every car was probably quite special and that it is actually misleading to consider all of them as part of a truly homogenous series. Differences are (were) quite likely to be found in chassis, engines, gearboxes and bodywork. Not to mention all the other components, from wheels to carburetors. And wheels, tires, fuel (hence tuning), gear ratios and other parameters need not have been equal from event to event. As I have stated previously, this study is likely to prove more than a bit complex.

John de Boer

[carlo]

I thought this may meet the interest of some of us

1952 Spider proto type 230K

Here is the direct link to this ebay item:
eBay Motors: Alfa Romeo : Spider (item 250209037371 end time Feb-13-08 02:08:43 PST)


Best regards
Ciao Carlo

[iicarJohn]

Pazzo22 asked about this eBay posting very early this morning. Here is the thread with my two cents worth.

6c2500 Competitzione and 6c3000-C50

[2000 touring sp]

ALFA ROMEO SPIDER 2500 (VIGNALE REPLICA) OLD CAR RARE
As its claimed to be a replica, I think its obvious. If its on a chassis with a real interesting history of value. Someone will by it and restore the original body.
Then we can start an argue, weather is real or not
Here is the picture, as I am of the opinion, that the picture shall not be lost, when the e-bay site is closed

[carlo]

Quote:

Pazzo22 asked about this eBay posting very early this morning. Here is the thread with my two cents worth.

[Il Vecchio]

I've emailed the seller asking for period photos, ownership history since new, Vignale body #, etc. I'll post his reply...if he does reply!

[iicarJohn]

There is a chassis number in the offering, repeated here in the title. It is a Turismo chassis number from the 1940's.

Reposting my response from the other thread:

The photos would tend to make me think that the car exists and is therefor "real". That does not mean that I assume it has any legitimate tie to the chassis number. Nor would I assume that it does not.

Does it have history before the last few years? If the chassis is genuine Alfa Romeo and legitimately carries the chassis number claimed, yes.

Is it likely to have any significant history in the current configuration? That is much less certain. The body is evocative of the Vignale body fitted to a 12 cylinder car, 412151, but is clearly not the actual body from that car.

The chassis number is new to my studies but that is not unusual. I get "new" (old) numbers fairly frequently. However, a "sports" configuration car claiming a "Turismo" chassis number begs several questions, most of them beginning, "Why ..."

Does it have value? Yes. Does it have anything like the value that is professed by the implications of the "Buy it now" offer? That's up to you and what you think you want. And perhaps how much you want to gift someone for what is likely to be some sort of vanity project ... in the best/worst case scenario. Personally, I would value it as something a bit more than the sum total of the parts, unless you happen to need just the parts.

[Il Vecchio]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Il veccio I've emailed the seller asking for period photos, ownership history since new, Vignale body #, etc. I'll post his reply...if he does reply!

[tubut]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Il veccio Did I mention my barn-find 8C 2900A? Gee, I'd photograph it but it's blocked in by the Gazella , and of course the 24HP A.L.F.A. has a flat tire at the moment...