Alfa 412 Vignale

[dretceterini]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtv2000 I've never heard that! I'm not aware Bucci ever owned a Tipo C. The period article on the sports car says it was built from the widened frame of the 12C, i.e. the 12C37/316 car we know. I reckon I never understood what was implied with "widening the frame". At this point, the future GP cars book by Simon Moore might provide some answers.

[Odin]

Hello,

It sounds strange to me.
If the Bucci Special, is really based on a 12C, so why it use a 6C 2500 SS chassisnumber(915.217)? I think a 12C Chassis is worth more then ten times, like a 6C 2500 in perfect condition.
Years ago, it was said, that Count Zanon, foud the famous Lancia D-24 #005 and a Ferrari 375 MM #362-374 AM in Argentine, mostly complete and original.
The fact is, that Nestor Salerno, by the way, a famous argentinien racedriver, had only the chassis of both cars, cause the were nearly destroyed. Salerno, who built for Bucci, the Special, recreated both cars new and even is offering, replicas of them, the Alfa 1900 Disco Volante, in four different shapes the 6C 3000 CM and Maseratis too. I personly saw in Argentine, several Bucci Specials, in historic racing.
He even fabricated for Bucci, another 12C-37, like I learned from you, with the original Engine. Bucci told in the interview, that they made only one cylinderhead, cause it was cracked. Maybe, they made a complete engine, so why not two, if the Special is really 12C based?

I believe, that Bucci-Salerno made a Special, to use the 12C Engine in sportscar races and copied the engine, maybe around some original bits.

The German-Brasilien Lawyer, which I know personly, is the best cartracker in Southamerica. He brought back to life, more than 1500 cars. He even made the big deal in Cuba, 72 old cars against new Ladas and money for the gouverment. He has lots of Alfas 6C 2500.
A well known Englishman, who in fact, is his agent, earnd lots of credits, for finding all the nice cars. He sold about 400, of them.
You have to think, its normaly impossibel, to export a historic important car, from south america. You really need very, very good connections.
When Jorge Anandon startet to clone the Bugatti 35 C, they bought 5 of them and sold it for real in England.
Be carefull with original cars, from south america!

Greetings

Jörg

[tubut]

BTW: Nestor Salerno's web site showing some of the cars can be found at http://www.nestorsalerno.com.ar

[iicarJohn]

Some of this discussion has been overly complicated and some is far too simplistic. Off the top of my head:

Bucci got a special 12C car from Varzi. Alfa Romeo & Varzi seem to have worked together to build a car that could perform well in South America in a race or two and then be sold there. There are conflicting accounts as to how the car was sold or given to Bucci, but those stories should not distract us from the car's description. It was a "bitsa" ("bitza", if you prefer) already at that point. A fabulous "bitsa", I might add! Alfa Romeo assembled it from mostly leftover parts from other projects that had become of little or no use to them. This should give us all the clues that we need to know that journalistic generalizations cannot describe the car completely. This is true of historic journalistic descriptions as well as all subsequent writings that are based solely on those inadequate journalistic observations.

A chassis from here, an engine from there, a gearbox from the corner and then some wheels from another corner. A body that had been used perhaps on the chassis before or perhaps on another car. All suitably modified, of course into a wonderful Alfa Romeo 12C Special.

So, the car is now with Bucci, having already made some history with Varzi as a car, the pieces having also probably made earlier histories in various other cars. As it turns out, the pattern of parts use in and on other cars would continue and some of this is not surprising and some of it was certainly not clandestine. But, assumptions have been made by people who haven't even bothered to check the car or attempted to do more than scratch the surface. There has been lots of gossip. Perhaps nothing more than that.

I don't have it in front of me as I write this, but somewhere, I have some correspondence that I had from Clemar Bucci when he was attempting to market the car directly and not through any agent, even though it was known that offers had been made.

Bucci used the car and then had a monoblock fail in 1953. Much more complex than just a cylinder head or block alone, replacements were not available from Alfa Romeo at that point so a replacement was made. Steel plates, each cut to the needed shape at each layer, were stacked and then the whole mass was welded and brazed together. The engine was made functional (if not outstanding?) and a decision was made to convert the car into a sports car, probably because there were no suitable GP races that could be run. The original body was removed and a new Ferrari-esque sports body was made by Nestor Salerno. There was a photo (courtesy of "AlfaRonny", as I recall) of that body that appeared early in this thread, fitted to a lightly modified 6C2500 chassis. Again, off the top of my head, the sports car version was used by Bucci (and others?) only a bit before it was retired from use. In later years, when he considered selling, Bucci wisely decided that the car would have more value restored at least superficially to its "original" configuration. The Salerno body was removed and the original body fitted. That car was sold eventually to Carlos Monteverde.

The Salerno body was fitted to the Alfa Romeo 6C2500 chassis that was also sold later to the USA and which resided in California last I knew. Although I have not inspected it closely, I did see it displayed in the pits at the Monterey Historics in 1999 and managed to have a bit of a look. As I recall, the front suspension was no longer AR6C as it had transverse leaf springing but there was nothing else that made me think it was not based largely on the 6C2500 chassis N. 915217. It had a marine engine N. M924768 fitted with Weber 40DCOE151 carburetors and a 6C2300 gearbox numbered 741654. Steering box was 6C2500 and I made the note that i thought the cam covers were swopped from side to side.

Incidently, it was reported that Salerno also offered copies of that body at about the same time as the body swapping was done in Argentina but I don't know if any actual copies were made. He certainly has done a lot of other interesting and evocative work!

Also incidently, the engine (926018) that was original to the chassis 915217 was reportedly used in an Alfa Romeo "P2" copy made south of the equator.

Also incidently, Bucci also owned chassis 915219 that was reportedly a berlinetta Touring but which was without body. That car has gone elsewhere as well, last known in Germany.

There have been rumors of a second "12C" special car having been built while the original was being restored to "original". These stories may have come from confusions generated by assumptions made as a result of the appearance of the Salerno body on the 6C chassis. If there is another "12C" car, I don't have any indication it has surfaced. If someone has further knowledge, please share.

[Odin]

Hi John,
I think you told the oficial story, count by Bucci. As far as I know, Varzi bought the Car from Alfa, which like you told, were assembled from different parts and raced by him in Argentine. Bucci was a fast driver, with good connections, to the Peron Family.
Fangio, Gonzales and Marimon, went to Europe and Bucci managed, to convince Peron, to buy the car. (Bucci mentioned in an interview, that he had a loveaffair with Eva Peron). He recieved the car and raced it, till the Engine broke.
He mentioned in an interview, to the German Alfa Club, that they made in Argentine a new Cylinderhead and on the other Side, that they repaired the broken Engine like you told. Later, they fitted the sportscarbody and he drove it like that.
The German Lawyer, tried since the early 80th, to buy this Car. Their was an offer of about 5.000.000 USD and Bucci refused to sell.
The market crashed and Bucci was on a promotiontour, to Europe, to sell his car in the early 90th.
At last, the German bought the car and sold it to Monteverde, or Symbolic.
I don't know, wether Bucci, or the German, sold the Special to the US.
But now is starting the mystery, Bucci sold another 12C-37 to Holland, in non running condition. This Car has a welded Block, which could be seen of the first sight. Maybe it is the original Engine and Bucci made a copy, which is in the ex Monteverde Car. The interesting thing is, that the owner in Holland, claims, that his Car is the original and the other Car is only a Copy. He has the repaired engine in his Car and some other parts, maybe Symbolic restored a Recreation, or maybe, both Cars have some original parts.
Like you told in your story, Bucci was not able, to find parts with Alfa Romeo and I don't believe, that Varzi went with spareparts to Argentine. He was happy to sell an old Racingcar.
This will be an interesting Story. I will upload some Pics of the Car from Holland
Regards
Jörg

[iicarJohn]

... but it feels like we are being led down a path? Hmmm. Wonder where it's going? Tune in later.

[dretceterini]

What goes the Bucci GP car have to do with the Vignale bodied 412? As far as I am aware, the Vignale bodied car was originally bodied by Touring ,and raced in 1938 and later, strictly as a sports car. The Vignale body was done in 1950 or 1951, and the car ran in the Mille Miglia. There is a story in Road and Track from the late 1950s or early 1960s, where someone (Mechele Vernona (sp?), the Italian correspondent to R&T, don't have the story handy; I'll have to check) drove the car on the streets of Milan. The car was "stored" at Volpini, and it is my understanding that the components of the original version with the Touring body, and the Vignale body were actually put together there. The car was for sale in Road and Track, and Henry Wessells was considering buying it, but never did. As far as I am aware, the car disappeared in the early 1960s...

[Odin]

Hi Stuart,
obviously the Engine.
Coming back to the 412. The thing, that I don't understand is, the 412 was a very special Car, like the Zagato bodied V4 GS and interesting cars, never disappear, without a trace. Like someone told before, the Car was offered to Henry Wessels, for ca. 3000 USD, this was a lot of money at that time. There were even Collectors in Europe, looking for Cars like these and to transform it, to do another Special, it was to big, to expensive and to old fashioned.

But we can see it now in the other threads of the 6C 3000 CM, or the Competizione. How could it be, that Alfa lost the Records? The Mercedes, or Auto Union Factories, were much more destroyed and the Records survived.
Alfa put the Cars in a shelter, without the Records??? They lost even Records of the Racing Cars of the 50th and in the 90th, there were Fotos stolen from the Archive. I can't believe this. Alfa was earning money in the 50th, with the 1900 and the Giulietta, they had no need, to sell their stuff.
There must be another story.
Maybe the Problem is, that there are no Carhistorians interested, in doing Alfa Reaserch. Most are only collecting known things.
Simon Moore did a nice Job, about the 2.9 Alfa, but he is discribing known Cars and their history, got some information from Alfa and some other people, but for the rest, he is only assuming. There is nothing concrete, maybe, there sre 7 8C 2900 A, or 11. Maybe there were only 2 Tipo 412, or 4. Maybe they had 8C 2900 B Chassisnumbers. Sorry, this is no research.
I've learned, that the Competiziones were lost, here in this Forum I learned, that the Body of #001 survived, that with Alfa Help, it recieved a special Cylinderhead, #002 the only survivor has got some strange transformation and even #003 survived as Spider in Italy and it was known???
I've heard that Autodelta lost its Records and here in the Forum, that Carlo Chiti, took some to his home. Everybody else too?
It sounds, like some guys in the Alfa Factory, were selling things and Alfa is backing this. When they offered to Alfa the 2.9 LM Coupe, they were even interested, in buying it. Thanks to Mike Sparken, an Alfetta 158, was rescued, from the old Portello Plant.
BMW, bought their 328 MM Cars back, they survived the war, even in Russia, and the Alfas are lost. Alfa was far more important in Pre-War Sportscar Racing, then any other Make, but they like to keep there history in the dark.
Regards
Jörg

[dretceterini]

The 412 Vignale was sold by Alfa before it got its Vignale body (circa 1951), and trying to trace a car that was owned by an individual is even more difficult than trying to trace a "factory" car. As to research, who can you ask? Will they tell the truth? Do they even really know? All of the people are dead, and all we really have is what Elvira was and others were able to save. I know for a fact a lot of photos and other documents were taken from the archives over they years and sold. Dave Mericle Jr., who lives in Garden Grove, California bought a whole bunch of photos at an Italian swap meet about 10-12 years ago, and I had never seen 3/4s of the photos he bought in any book!

Here is a link to a photo of a 1/43rd scale model of the Vignale Tipo 412 in its 1951 Mille Miglia paint scehme..

http://shop.alfisti.net/images/produ.../tmc146sv2.jpg

[carlo]

Quote:

There is a story in Road and Track from the late 1950s or early 1960s, where someone (Mechele Vernona, the Italian correspondent to R&T, don't have the story handy; I'll have to check) drove the car on the streets of Milan. The car was "stored" at Volpini,

[dretceterini]

Quote:

Originally Posted by carlo By coincidence I just came over this article. Here is the passage about the 412, author is Burton Harrison and it was published in Road 'n Track September 1952. Indeed they picked up the Alfa at the Scuderia Volpini. Before that they had a test drive in a Lancia prepared for the Carrera Panamericana. Best regards Ciao Carlo

[Odin]

Hi Carlo
thanks for sharing it, but it would be nice, to see the whole article. Hope you can scan it.

So, as I could read, it was not clear in 1952, were there are 2, or 3, or 4 Cars. Bonetto died in 1953 and the car disappeard. Interesting. Somebody spoke ever to Bonettos Family, asking for the Car, or his mecanics, or the Volpini Shop?
I think Alfa did eliminate after the war, some 'dark' Information, with the Mussolini Connection, but did they realy destroyed the information, or 'lost' it in their archive, or in private hands? It seems to be, that there was a sellout after the war, to make some cash, or maybe, they paid some debts, with cars and parts, or some people did it on their own account.
The italiens, were never old fashionate and liked more new Cars and there were lots of new exiting stuff, in the 50th, but the italians everytime liked the money and I don't believe, that they destroyed the old stuff. There were collectors and passioned people. Look, what happened to the Lancia D23, D24, D25 and D50 Parts. Many things survived.
I read in the Hull Alfa Book, that Bonettos 412 went to Spain and was destroyed, but the Engine survived in Italy and now that the car was lost in Milan, but from all Alfa historians the same, the car was destroyed. Maybe for this reason, nobody ever tried to find it, or the others. Nobody exactly knows, how many were built, or armed afterwards to sell and no original 12C-37 survived. Alfa used one Engine in Varzis Car, another is in Mulhouse in Daetwylers car, another in the 12C-36 'Bitza' and one Engine in a Museum, there must be more, cause Alfa didn't do a GP Season, with only 4 Engines.
There were some Sparechassis of the 2.9 A + B and at last 10 Type C Chassis, but until now, only 4 Type C Survivers.
Maybe the circle, who is involved in Pre-War Alfa, is to small, or to 'elite', to do more research and they are happy with the cars, who are existing and there is no need for more. Or they are afraid of the Alfa Enthusiast, who enjoys, to talk about 'fake' Cars.
There are at last 50 fake Mercedes SSK, they are selling for a lot of money, but I never heard any discussion about it. How many Maserati Recreations, are circulating, no discussion, but we are fighting from Alfa Suds downwards, for every detail, on each car and Fiat wants to sell new Cars, with different badges.
Let's see, where are we going.
Regards
Jörg

[dretceterini]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Odin Hi Carlo thanks for sharing it, but it would be nice, to see the whole article. Hope you can scan it. So, as I could read, it was not clear in 1952, were there are 2, or 3, or 4 Cars. Bonetto died in 1953 and the car disappeard. Interesting. Somebody spoke ever to Bonettos Family, asking for the Car, or his mecanics, or the Volpini Shop? I think Alfa did eliminate after the war, some 'dark' Information, with the Mussolini Connection, but did they realy destroyed the information, or 'lost' it in their archive, or in private hands? It seems to be, that there was a sellout after the war, to make some cash, or maybe, they paid some debts, with cars and parts, or some people did it on their own account. The italiens, were never old fashionate and liked more new Cars and there were lots of new exiting stuff, in the 50th, but the italians everytime liked the money and I don't believe, that they destroyed the old stuff. There were collectors and passioned people. Look, what happened to the Lancia D23, D24, D25 and D50 Parts. Many things survived. I read in the Hull Alfa Book, that Bonettos 412 went to Spain and was destroyed, but the Engine survived in Italy and now that the car was lost in Milan, but from all Alfa historians the same, the car was destroyed. Maybe for this reason, nobody ever tried to find it, or the others. Nobody exactly knows, how many were built, or armed afterwards to sell and no original 12C-37 survived. Alfa used one Engine in Varzis Car, another is in Mulhouse in Daetwylers car, another in the 12C-36 'Bitza' and one Engine in a Museum, there must be more, cause Alfa didn't do a GP Season, with only 4 Engines. There were some Sparechassis of the 2.9 A + B and at last 10 Type C Chassis, but until now, only 4 Type C Survivers. Maybe the circle, who is involved in Pre-War Alfa, is to small, or to 'elite', to do more research and they are happy with the cars, who are existing and there is no need for more. Or they are afraid of the Alfa Enthusiast, who enjoys, to talk about 'fake' Cars. There are at last 50 fake Mercedes SSK, they are selling for a lot of money, but I never heard any discussion about it. How many Maserati Recreations, are circulating, no discussion, but we are fighting from Alfa Suds downwards, for every detail, on each car and Fiat wants to sell new Cars, with different badges. Let's see, where are we going. Regards Jörg

[iicarJohn]

... why it might be appropriate to talk about the 12C Grand Prix cars in relation to the 412 cars, I have the follow