07-25-2007, 04:13 PM
|
 |
Registered User
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 1,087
|
|
|
The car that was at Symbolic has a lot of new parts. So the old grille and a lot of other more substantial parts are still around in pieces. I'm not sure why it looks the way that it does but from a few photos I've seen of the car before and after, it seems to have a much lower cowl. Of course I'm not an expert.
|
07-26-2007, 09:38 AM
|
 |
Registered User
|
|
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow
Posts: 5,438
|
|
 Quote:
Originally Posted by johnei
The car that was at Symbolic has a lot of new parts. So the old grille and a lot of other more substantial parts are still around in pieces. I'm not sure why it looks the way that it does but from a few photos I've seen of the car before and after, it seems to have a much lower cowl. Of course I'm not an expert.
|
|
07-30-2007, 06:03 PM
|
|
Registered User
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 31
|
|
|
4C12/12C37/etc.
A couple of stories from the last 5 years. Aparently the car that went to South America ended up spawning 2 cars. This isnt beyond the realm of possibilities. For instance I guess the South American owner may have had more than enough spares with the car to build another, who knows. I also read a very interesting letter to the editor from Simon Moore in an old Classic & Sportscar magazine.
The letter stated that he had tried to find out what the actual type of this Grand Prix car was and failed, and he is the marque authority  . I mean who knows what it was. But also in 1988 C & S/ Simon Moore had an article on the 8C/35 GP car, of which there where apparantly something like 5 - 7 built, and it also stated there where many 12C/37's built. It isnt beyond the realms of possibility that there are some still existing out there ??.
All of this is based on my memory so pinch of salt stuff
Timmmmmmmy |
07-31-2007, 11:38 AM
|
 |
Registered User
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Since 1994 in Chile
Posts: 94
|
|
|
Mystery of Alfas GP Cars
Hi guys,
I think, there are to much rumores about Alfa GP cars. In the case of the Varzi-Bucci Car, its easy to trace down the history, cause this car was everytime wellknown.
Clemente Bucci purchased this car, with a little help of the Peron family. Argentine was at that time, one of the richest countries in the world, and typical Latin, Peron wanted to show the world, how good it is. He purchased several cars for Oscar Galvez, Juan Manuel Fangio, Onofre Marimon, Froilan Gonzales and Clemente Bucci.
Bucci won several races against Fangio and for this he recieved the 12C-37.
There are rumors, that he even was a lover of Eva Peron.
He raced this car, till he cracked one cylinderheads. Later he ordered, to manufacture a new one in Argentine, cause there were no spareparts. He later decieded, to mount this engine in an Sportscar, which was made in Argentina.
He rejected all the offers to sell the car and both cars were kept in a secret place.
All the time he was in contact, with a Brasilien born German Lawyer, the major car tracker in southamerica, and sold both cars to him. The 12C-37 was fitted with his original engine and the sportscar recieved a 6C 2500 SS Engine.
Carlos Monteverde bought the 12C-37 and the Sportscar, Bucci-Special went to the US.
Nowadays the 12C-37 is in Austria.
|
07-31-2007, 11:52 AM
|
|
Registered User
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Since 1994 in Chile
Posts: 94
|
|
|
Bucci-Special
This is the Bucci-Special with 6C 2500 SS Engine
|
07-31-2007, 11:59 AM
|
 |
Registered User
|
|
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Southeast PA
Posts: 64
|
|
|
Bucci Special
More pictures of this beautiful car, please!!!!!
Bob Z.
|
07-31-2007, 12:11 PM
|
|
Registered User
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Since 1994 in Chile
Posts: 94
|
|
|
Pictures
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Zambelli
More pictures of this beautiful car, please!!!!!
Bob Z.
|
you can find them www.conceptcarz.com
Greetings
Jörg
|
07-31-2007, 12:25 PM
|
|
Registered User
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Since 1994 in Chile
Posts: 94
|
|
|
Another 12C
Hi guys,
there are another pictures of an 1936 Alfa Romeo 12C in
www.supercars.net/ which looks different to me. Somebody could explain please!
Thanks
Jörg |
07-31-2007, 06:11 PM
|
|
Registered User
|
|
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow
Posts: 5,438
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Odin
Hi guys,
there are another pictures of an 1936 Alfa Romeo 12C in
www.supercars.net/ which looks different to me. Somebody could explain please!
Thanks
Jörg |
The 12c37 is a new car, with a lower chassis, and a 4.5 liter DOHC V-12. The bodywork is different from the earler cas. The 1938 Tipo 312 looks like this car, but uses a 3 liter 12 cylinder motor, due to rules changes limiting the maximum engine siize to 3 liters
|
07-31-2007, 08:33 PM
|
|
Registered User
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Since 1994 in Chile
Posts: 94
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by dretceterini
The 8c35 (various engine displacements were used, ranging from 3 liters to almost 4 liters) and the 12c36 look identical, other than the 35 only had exhaust pipes on one side of the car, and the 36 on both. They use the same chassis and have almost identical bodywork. The 12c36 also is a SOHC V-12 of 4.1 liters.
The 12c37 is a new car, with a lower chassis, and a 4.5 liter DOHC V-12. The bodywork is different from the earler cas. The 1938 Tipo 312 looks like this car, but uses a 3 liter 12 cylinder motor, due to rules changes limiting the maximum engine siize to 3 liters
|
Thanks for your Reply.
For my understanding, there are still 2 8C-35 cars existing, there is one 12C-36 in the Alfa Museum, which looks nearly identical, the 12C-37 ex Bucci and 2 8C 308 Cars, one in the US and the other in England. But which car is shown in the supercars.net Page. Is it another 12C-37, or is it a 312?
Furthermore there are 3 Alfettas 159, two in the Museum and one private and there is a 158 in the Museum. I never heard, that the Alfettas were sold to private Hands, but what happened to the others?
Or they made only six 158 and later transformed them to 159?
The same Question with the P2. There is one car in the Museo #0003, another car is in the Museo Biscaretti, I think, Varzis modified car. I heard, there are some rumors, that another car is maybe in Brasil, but what happened to the rest. Do you know anything?
For me its strange, you can track the historys of the existing cars easy, but the rest never appeared in races.
Jonny Mauros 8C 308 is known, the other wath with Oscar Galvez.
The 12C-37 was all the time with Bucci.
One 8C-35 was in the Fangio Museum, but it was Galvez car. Fangio never drove it. I think the other was allthough in Argentine, not shure.
Mike Sparken made the deal with the Alfetta. All well known, but the rest?
Maybe Alfa scrabbed them?
I think Alfa made more engines, than cars. They maybe changed only the engines, but never made all the cars.
Greetings
Jörg
|
08-01-2007, 03:45 AM
|
 |
Registered User
|
|
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 583
|
|
Jörg,
please refer to the 308 at Indianapolis thread. Down page 1, I give a link to an article of mine where you can find comprehensive answers to the 12C37/312/316 identities and differences.
On the Supercar page, you find indeed pictures of a second 12C built by Bucci with spare parts and recreated ones. That car was also discussed before on the BB, but I've not the proper link at hand. It includes the cracked and welded engine, a repro body of lesser craftmanship and reputedly part of an original frame, while another large part of it is recreated. The car is not running in current conditions. It's currently in Dutch hands. The pics on the site were taken last year at the Het Loo concours d'elegance, where I had the occasion of seeing it in the metal.
I remember I have contributed to a comprehensive discussion on the 158 production, but that may have happened years ago on the Nostalgia forum, possibly here
This thread may as well provide some info on the topics you raise.
Since then, Ed McDonough's book has been issued and completed the picture about 158/159s discussed here
|
08-01-2007, 09:51 AM
|
|
Registered User
|
|
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow
Posts: 5,438
|
|
|
According to the information I have, the car Bucci owned that was turned into a 6c2500 powered sports car started as a 12c36 and not a 12c37.
|
08-01-2007, 11:21 AM
|
|
Registered User
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Since 1994 in Chile
Posts: 94
|
|
|
Questions
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtv2000
Jörg,
please refer to the 308 at Indianapolis thread. Down page 1, I give a link to an article of mine where you can find comprehensive answers to the 12C37/312/316 identities and differences.
On the Supercar page, you find indeed pictures of a second 12C built by Bucci with spare parts and recreated ones. That car was also discussed before on the BB, but I've not the proper link at hand. It includes the cracked and welded engine, a repro body of lesser craftmanship and reputedly part of an original frame, while another large part of it is recreated. The car is not running in current conditions. It's currently in Dutch hands. The pics on the site were taken last year at the Het Loo concours d'elegance, where I had the occasion of seeing it in the metal.
I remember I have contributed to a comprehensive discussion on the 158 production, but that may have happened years ago on the Nostalgia forum, possibly here
This thread may as well provide some info on the topics you raise.
Since then, Ed McDonough's book has been issued and completed the picture about 158/159s discussed here |
I was infected, years ago, with prewar racing, for me, the most important years. I can recomend the book 'The French Sports Car Revolution' from Anthony Blight. An amasing book, which made me change, my mind, as Alfisti.
Before I really never was interested in cars like this, but then I started driving prewar cars and I enjoy them very much.
Anthony Blights historical Backround is a little bit to british, but his main Readers are anglosaxons, like in most other books, they believe in the british point of view for history.
I'm now 14 years in southamerica and its difficult, to find some decent, new information.
So, thank you again fore sharing
Jörg
|
08-01-2007, 11:41 AM
|
|
Registered User
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Since 1994 in Chile
Posts: 94
|
|
|
Bucci Spezial
Quote:
Originally Posted by dretceterini
According to the information I have, the car Bucci owned that was turned into a 6c2500 powered sports car started as a 12c36 and not a 12c37.
|
Apart of this article, I knew the person, who bought both cars from him. He offered in 94 around 5.000.000 Dollars, for the cars and Bucci rejected this. Later I've heard, the deal went for 3.200.000 Dollars.
Its difficult to prove, what is real in Argentine, cause they are able, to create everything, from parts, cars, paperworks and history.
At least one thing is true. One car went to Argentine and three cars came back.
Thank you
Jörg
|
08-02-2007, 03:24 AM
|
|
Registered User
|
|
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 583
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by dretceterini
According to the information I have, the car Bucci owned that was turned into a 6c2500 powered sports car started as a 12c36 and not a 12c37.
|
| |
