The philosophy of Alfa Romeo

[Tubolare Zagato]

Unfortunately nowadays there are some poeple to believe that the new Alfa/Fiat/GM 159/Brera is a car designed and produced exactly according to the original philosophy of the Alfa Romeo brand...(what a ****)
I tend to believe that the philosophy of our beloved brand is best presented by the Jano era. An era when the cars and Alfa people had "racing" into their DNA. Could anyone tell me where the hell is a similarity on philosophy between the 8C2300 masterpiece and the new overweight Brera?
And there are also some people to tell that Jano was a FIAT man. Hahaha... Maybe they don't know what Jano said about that. When Jano designed the engine for the P2 people said "Haha, this is a Fiat-Alfa Romeo". But when FIAT people looked at the car the told "This car and engine has nothing to do with ours".
Where is the Alfa spirit today? Where is the Alfa archetype of the powerful and lightweight sports car? Where are those technical innovations Alfa used to show?
Is the modern Alfa a beautifylly designed Mercedes-Benz?
What's your point you modern Alfa Romeo??

[dretceterini]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tubolare Zagato Unfortunately nowadays there are some poeple to believe that the new Alfa/Fiat/GM 159/Brera is a car designed and produced exactly according to the original philosophy of the Alfa Romeo brand...(what a ****) I tend to believe that the philosophy of our beloved brand is best presented by the Jano era. An era when the cars and Alfa people had "racing" into their DNA. Could anyone tell me where the hell is a similarity on philosophy between the 8C2300 masterpiece and the new overweight Brera? And there are also some people to tell that Jano was a FIAT man. Hahaha... Maybe they don't know what Jano said about that. When Jano designed the engine for the P2 people said "Haha, this is a Fiat-Alfa Romeo". But when FIAT people looked at the car the told "This car and engine has nothing to do with ours". Where is the Alfa spirit today? Where is the Alfa archetype of the powerful and lightweight sports car? Where are those technical innovations Alfa used to show? Is the modern Alfa a beautifylly designed Mercedes-Benz? What's your point you modern Alfa Romeo??

[Farace]

While I don't have any evidence one way or the other, I suspect that Alfa, like many companies nowaday, is no longer driven by the passion of talented individuals (not only Merosi and Jano, but many of those under Satta as well), but rather by the consensus of committees. Who can name any of the engineers working for Alfa now?

[GTV116]

Dear TZ
There is no such thing (as Alfa spirit) for the last 34 years.The last example that carried elements of Alfa's spirit was the 116 series (Alfetta and it's derivates.Transaxle's addoption in search of ideal weight distribution for the first time on a car of the medium category.A solution that we can find nowdays only on supercars).Fiat's era Alfas although of much better built quality were (and still are) technically rather compromised or dull cars(with the exception of pininfarina's gtv and 156 suspension layout and Busso's V6 continuous evolution.Neverthteless you can't claim that Gta's- be they 156 or 147 - are real supercars.Modest power output with lots of understeer).
Unfortunately times are changing.In nowdays the vast majority of Alfa's clientele has no clue about Alfa's glorious past and history and Fiat knows that very well.The serious problem with Fiat's policy is it's persistence to create a complete range for Alfa with German built quality (Fiat's Achille's heel).And that proved a wild goose chase for Fiat which in the meantime desregardered it's cars individual charachteristics (what you call Alfa's spirit).Alfa should create niche models (for example a medium class berlina and on it's shortened wheellbase floorpan a coupe/spider).That's the only way for Alfa to remain a synonymous of sport's car maker while at the same time will be profitable for Fiat.
Just to consider yourself lucky, see what Fiat's policy -in an attempt to help Alfa's reduced sales and to increase Alfa's share in the italian market- did to Lancia.
I had a short test with the 159 and i can assure you about Alfa's dominance over the german opposition in terms of comfort and ride quality.Do you believe it?As for the engines why would you want a petrol (even a V6) since you can have the superb multijets?
Times are changing maybe so should we?

[pb2k]

My Bertone Junior was aimed at the young and elite of the 70's. My age is 30, so this car suits me My dad drove juniors and GTV's when he was 30, I just have great memories of this car, the specific smell of the interior brings up childhood memories. What can i do, this car is already awesome and way more within my reach than a modern turbodiesel. It's easy to maintain, you don't need a computerspecialist to repair it. It has a lot of +'s modern cars don't have. What can I buy that turns heads like this bertone does !!

so, i dont care about the exact history of alfa, i know 'brands' well enough to know they are not much better than political parties. So I enjoy the everlasting beauty of my Bertone, and will improve what they neglected in the designing or manufacturing process myself.

[PSk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tubolare Zagato And there are also some people to tell that Jano was a FIAT man. Hahaha... Maybe they don't know what Jano said about that. When Jano designed the engine for the P2 people said "Haha, this is a Fiat-Alfa Romeo". But when FIAT people looked at the car the told "This car and engine has nothing to do with ours".

[2000 touring sp]

OR, a badge is what Ford and GM did to all those proud producers back in the 1930, and what they is moor or less doing with to days product program

[evilgidget]

I have the solution to Alfa's problems.

What I propose is a small, lightweight aluminium/carbon fibre shell, fitted with a refined version of the old 116-series' transaxle with better syncho's & shift feel, a carbon 1-piece driveshaft leading up the front to a supercharged 24V 3.7 engine (with a modified gear-driven timing arrangement), sitting just behing the front axle line. Brembo 4-pots and vented rotors all around wrapped in 18" rims. ABS maybe, but no power steering. Keeping the useless trimmings out if we can, so basic 2+2 seating with NO leather, satnav, heated buttwarmers... Basic 4-speaker sound & Air/c optional... Keep the car simple electrically for less likelyhood of something bad happening there (better still, don't use BOSCH electricals).

Keep the sucker basic, no frills, lighter than a can of diet Spam & more powerful than a shipping container of laxatives... And then sell it for US$20K...


Who else wants one?

[ALFA GTV6 GP]

I want one.....

I also want Alfa to build the Diva.

(Still kicking myself I didnt buy the Giocattolo.Then I would be cured of this Alfa virus.)
John

[dretceterini]

I think what a lot of us would like is a modern day Giulietta coupe, sedan, and spider, maximum weight 2500 pounds, rear wheel drive, and a 175 hp 2 liter

[pathung]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dretceterini I think what a lot of us would like is a modern day Giulietta coupe, sedan, and spider, maximum weight 2500 pounds, rear wheel drive, and a 175 hp 2 liter

[Vivace]

I think these people (posted earlier) are on to something fun...

http://www.5pider.com/eng/eng.html

I've been thinking about this idea for a while, with all these discussions about Alfa history, and Fiat, and the US 'return' etc. - can we design a 'virtual' modern Giulia. I don't mean a nostalgia car, looking backwards, but a new design with a nod to the style and passion of these cars.

I am not impressed with most of the new heavy looking, squat, high windowsill small(ish) cars coming out recently. Too much mass, too much padding, too much leather, too many gadgets, too much circuitry and too many servos to support it all.

Also disappointing is the extreme nature of supercars, by nearly every sporting manufacturer. Mind boggling acceleration and speed potential. Cars that would no doubt beat our old favorite 60's unlimited Le Mans prototypes, but with stereos and air conditioning running. They are exciting engineering exercises, some are nice to look at, and I believe someone out there should be pushing the state of the art, but they no longer have any real world relevance (to me anyway). Their capabilities are not usable in a responsible way (see coastal highway accident). Most of us don't have access to track days, and they are few and far between.

The Ford GT40 is beautiful, but a total nostalgia car. A Gulf GT40 is better looking, and had a reason to be.

So back to my point of a modern interpetation of the Giulietta/Giulia IDEA (not the look) : small, light, two seats, no top (coupe version as well), 4 or 6 cylinder alloy engine with real engineering passion and efficiency, RWD, fantastic brakes, great handling, engineering innovation, and great head-turning design by the best out there. The idea of being based on an existing platform is not out of the question - it's been done well for years. Alfa did it then.

It's not a pie-in-the-sky idea. The (niche) market is there. The Mazda Miata, BMW Z3 and Z4, etc are all selling well and fun to drive. (I see evilgidgit has already started describing something like this) Pontiac, for gods sakes, is pushing an interesting two-seat sports car (did I actually say that?!).

So I put it out there to you more experienced engineering and chassis types - just for fun, start laying out the design, dimensions, and ideas for this virtual sports car. It must be reasonably affordable (Alfas were never 'cheap'), and a blast to drive, but reliable and usable every day. No extremes, simple systems, servicable layout. Later we'll get a Pininfarina or equally talented design firm to fit it in a beautiful shell.

Let's see it!

(Maybe I'll start a new thread with this to see if there's any interest in discussion)

[Farace]

It would need a cupholder, of course.



Seriously, though, I think one thing that distinguished the definitive Alfa was that the road cars were based on (some more than others of course), Alfa's legendary race cars. Nowadays it seems that things are reversed.

[rloewy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dretceterini I think what a lot of us would like is a modern day Giulietta coupe, sedan, and spider, maximum weight 2500 pounds, rear wheel drive, and a 175 hp 2 liter

[resqguy]

I saw this on the AutoBlog a while back. It seems that they are on the right track with this.