6C3000 CM - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums

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Old 10-13-2005, 09:24 AM
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Museums and recreations...a hot topic indeed

In addition to the above mentioned Alfas, I was told that also the 6C3000CM Spider in the museum should be included in the list of recreations

And recently I saw a photo of this Spider with non-original disc-breaks...
Maybe the Merano-winning car was used for experiments concerning breaks, anyway it's an indication for non-original parts underneath.


Did anyone already make a sort of "black-list" concerning replicas in Arese?
Could be quite interesting

Best regards
Ciao Carlo
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Old 10-13-2005, 09:43 AM
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Hi Carlo

Am I the origin of the rumor you quote about the 6C3000 CM Spider?

If so, I might have been misunderstood. I don't think it's anything close to a replica. I've been said from 'inside people' at the museum that today's car is not/would not be the Merano 1953 winning car and, after some doubts, I would indeed believe it's not that actual car, since close look at the details would confirm there are differences.

The use of that 6C3000 CM as testbed for odd disk brakes (you know, with a pump to cool the liquid in order to prevent it from boiling ! ) is quite well known, and would indeed prove that the car in the museum is indeed an old racer/test car. The doubt is only on Fangio's winning 6C identity, possibly confused with a similar car crashed by Sanesi during a test session in Monza. So were there one or two 6C3000CM spider? Does some of the old men at Arese confuse a second Colli Spider with the following 6C3000 PR, known for having been crashed at Monza before having been immortaled on pictures?



About a "black list": there's no mistery around the replicas at Arese. I think they are publicly declare as such. A look to the museum catalogue book should even show it indicated for each one. Now, as I wrote above, there are also cars rebuilt from authentic spares, but fitted to different models or adapted, or with mock/improper engines, etc. A comprehensive list of all shortcomings of the museum disply would be, er, unfair, IMHO, if you consider the real issues about the museum's location (building in need of conservative works, for instance), maintenance and restoration of the cars, public access, etc.

Last edited by gtv2000; 10-13-2005 at 09:49 AM.
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Old 10-13-2005, 10:18 PM
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Waht ever happened to the plans that were announced about 2-3 years ago to create a new museum/move what is there to a place in central Milan...
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Old 10-13-2005, 11:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dretceterini
Waht ever happened to the plans that were announced about 2-3 years ago to create a new museum/move what is there to a place in central Milan...
GM took over...
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'63 2600 Touring Spider (AR 191437, the car that started the 2000/2600 International Register, reassembly in progress)
ex-'65 2600 SZ (AR 856043, resto project)
Maintainer of a 2600 SZ register (not the Dutch one).
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Old 10-14-2005, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dretceterini
Waht ever happened to the plans that were announced about 2-3 years ago to create a new museum/move what is there to a place in central Milan...
As far as I know, while there have been even press article with ideas for such a move, the current situation is that the "Centro Direzionale", the building where the museum is laocated, is no longer planned for sale, thus the museum should stay there.

I don't think that the rumours of Fiat selling part of the collection were anything else than rumours either.

The idea I would most fear is that the museum would end being no longer open to the public in favour of the "new concept" of "rolling museum", i.e. sending cars around the world for any occasion, without central static display.

I guess that one of the key issues is the investment needed to restore the "Centro Direzionale".
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Old 10-14-2005, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtv2000
.

I guess that one of the key issues is the investment needed to restore the "Centro Direzionale".

I agree, but unfortunately, I don't think that is much of a priority
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Old 10-15-2005, 09:18 AM
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Hello gtv2000

Quote:
If so, I might have been misunderstood
I think so as well, so thanks for putting things right

I never doubted the possibility that the Spider may have been used for testing new features.
What remains to be found out is the question of how many cars of the 6C series were crashed....

There is no doubt that the 6C3000PR crashed, but how many others????

I regard another story possible as well....
The racing department built at least 2 Spiders for the Merano race, and while testing them in Monza, Sanesi crashed one of them.
Then it would make sense that Alfa Romeo entered three 6C cars at Merano, but withdraw them exept Fangio.
Thinking about one or more 6C Spiders, brings up another question...
Were the Spider(s) converted and renumbered Coupes?

The answer still needs to be found

C ya soon
Ciao Carlo
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Old 10-15-2005, 10:24 AM
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When Carlo Chiti was employed by Alfa Romeo racing department in July 1953, his first task was to test disk brakes on the 6C3000, , but it was not implement Ted, to the Merano race, as they cold not keep the brake fluid from boiling. So the one that is a the museum with disc brakes, can be the one that was used to test.
After the victory at Merano, Alfa Romeos closed down the experimental department( racing department) and concentrated on supporting privateers in 1900 and Giulietta.
In Sweden was a young man Joachim Bonnier he owned the firm that had the representation in Sweden for Alfa Romeo, and participated in the Swedish championship in a 1900.
After the victory at Merano, he vas able to rent or just for loan a 6C3000 spider ,probably the Merano winning car, and used in the beginning in ice razing, raze on frozen lakes during winter time.
Later he competed in international sports car razing with the spider before he entered in formel 1 late 50.
He had probably a accident because Zagato did some repair or modifications on the car around 57, the picture shoves slightly diff front and picture is from Joe Benson Buyers guide app 1983.
I think it is this car that is in America
According to Fusi there was build 2 spiders and 4 coupe.
2 coupe was used to build
one for Boano 6C3500 coupe to President Peron in Argentina, witch later was converted back by, and is the one that Phil Hill is driving.
The other was used for PininFarina 6C3500 Superflow in 56/57
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old 10-15-2005, 10:27 AM
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Missing pisture Alfa Romeo 6C3000 CM Zagato
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Old 10-15-2005, 10:49 AM
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sorry , the system will not accept the picture of 6C3000 Zagato
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Old 10-15-2005, 11:50 AM
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The 6c3000 CM Zagato, which was owned by Bonnier, and later, was owned by Henry Wessells here in the US, was at Monterey this year, with a blue and yellow paint job.
I believe this car was rebodied in 1956 from a crashed coupe.

Another racing coupe, which was crashed, bodied by Boanao, crashed again, and bodied in the racing coupe style today, was also once owned by Henry Wessells. This is the car driven by Phil Hill.

I am not certain if only 1 or 2 cars were built with the Supercortemaggiore spider style coachwork, but I THINK only one., and it was NOT a rebodied coupe. The 6c3000 PR is an entirely different car, and was one of a kind.

I believe (without checking) that there were two versions of the 6c3000 CM superflow, but they were the same car (which started out as a racing coupe) The first version of the superflow had tail fins, and the second version looks kind of like a Duetto with a glass roof. I think Henry Wessells also owned this car at one time...
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Old 10-15-2005, 12:25 PM
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I didn't know that Henry Wessells , had owned the Bonier spider. But it was Henry Wessells that crashed the Buano Coupe, and in that connection he decides that it shall be converted back, prior to Phil Hill took over. The Conversion back to Colli Coupe was done by Carrozzeria Diamante in Italian, and the repair of the mechanic was done by Hall and Fowler in England
There was only 2 6C3000 CM spider build. And those we can count for. One in Museum and the Bonier one. The Bonnier has always been a spider. And the rebody must be what Zagato did late 50.
The "new" 6C3000 PR (Passo Ridotto)was only once and it was the one that crashed during practice on Monza.
The Coupes 6C3000 CM there was 4, the 2 we can count for (Buano and Farina) but where the missing 2 is I don't know, is there one in the museum? I don't know.
PininFarine did 4 different designs on the chassis he got the 2 Superflows and 2 super sports
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Old 10-15-2005, 02:16 PM
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I believe you are mistaken, and the Bonnier Zagato spider was originally one of the LM/MM racing coupes.
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Old 10-15-2005, 04:47 PM
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Sorry, but it is for sure that Bonnier got one of the 6C3000 spiders to Sweden and used it for ice razing.
But if the Zagato is a re bodied coupe , I don't know. My impression was that he have had an accident and got the spider repaired by Zagato.
But it is interesting if the Zagato/Bonnier is build on a coupe chassis.
It has to be examined
http://www.gpracing.net192.com/drivers/careers/75.cfm

That year Bonnier also took part in the Swedish GP, a sportscar race with a Le Mans start. Bonnier's start was spectacular if not too successful: he got into reverse gear by mistake and crashed into the pits! Bonnier continued racing in rallies and ice races. As an Alfa distributor he was able to borrow one of the few Alfa Romeo "Disco Volante" 3.5-litre sportscars in existence. While not much of a sports car the Disco Volante proved to be the ideal ice racing car and after an unsuccesful debut at the Finnish GP Bonnier went on to score several Scandinavian successes.
http://8w.forix.com/bonnier.html
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Old 10-15-2005, 06:09 PM
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Here is a link to a photo of the ex-Bonnier, ex-Wessells 6c3000CM Zagato spider.

http://www.supercars.net/Pics?viewPi...gID=18&pID=578
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