6C3000 CM - Page 6 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums

  #76 (permalink)  
Old 10-21-2005, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2000 touring sp
some one has stated that it started as a 3000cc engine and Alfa gave up on that.
The 6C engine , not the old 6c2500, did that not start as a 6C2000 designed by Ricardo for the Gazelle prototype. And than it was considered for the new Berlina "1900". And the enlarged by Colombo for the C50.
I have never heard that Alfa Romeo planed for a series production of a cc3000 car after the second world war
"Please, don't tell me pedant, but how about once for all spell correctly poor Wifredo Ricart's name!"

I read right over the error. But it was maybe what we call a "Fruedian slip."
Ricardo the Englishman was a consultant to Ricart.
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  #77 (permalink)  
Old 10-21-2005, 10:54 AM
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I would certainly tend to agree that the 3 liter, 6 cylinder motor used in the C-52 body and also used in the 1950 6C3000-C50 (the last version of the 6c2500 Competitizione) was basically a modified version of the engine designed to be used in the 6c3000 "street"car.

Actually, since Fusi says there were 3 6c3000 "street" cars built, and since there was but one 6c3000-C50 plus two 6c3000-C52s, the idea of three motors built makes some sense.....or maybe not. I agree that the DV book is not very good, and leaves us with many questions.

I alos can see some relationship between these motors and what appeared in the Sportiva.

There is also Jay Nuxoll's story about having driven a 102 spider prototype with a "hotted up" motor, possably actually a Sportiva motor, circa 1958.

By the way, I now have Elvira's home address, and have started a thread at the top of the board with it.

Always looking to learn more about Alfas and etceterinis...
Best,
Stu
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  #78 (permalink)  
Old 10-21-2005, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtv2000

BTW, the 1900 engine should have featured aluminium block, but since the first tests with such a prototype showed problems, Satta and Busso settled for traditional cast iron as they had not the necessary time/resources to sort it out. So the aluminium block of the Disco Volante can be seen as the experimental realization of what was intended for the 1900 (not for output, just for construction)
.
To elaborate, not contradict: the 1900 really did need that aluminum block. One is always aware of the mass of the engine when driving those cars. And for Alfa, the technical characteristics were always forced by the requirements of driving. The weight issue would have been more serious in the lighter Disco. [I can really feel the exact shape of the engine in the Corto Gara that I am fortunate to maintain]. But the aluminum blocks failed in durability, which was not an issue for the Disco prototype. The solution learned for the Giulietta was never applied to the 1900 [or 102]. But the Disco now runs with an iron block engine.

The 6 cylinder engines from the 6C3000 to the PR used the "same" [dimensionally similar] iron blocks. The 6C3000CM block looks like the 1900 block. And they use the same bearings.

--Carter
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  #79 (permalink)  
Old 10-21-2005, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2000 touring sp
C52.85 x 88..1997cc engine was that not a special designed engine designed by Colombo with wet liners in a aluminium block, and only produced to Diso Volante
Found it: two photos of the aluminum c52 engine in its stand at Arese. These show that the engine shares most of its build data with the 1900 [6C3000]. It has some interesting features and characteristics but the engine is the same. I think the oil pan gasket, head gasket and front cover gaskets from a 1900 gasket set would fit. I don't mean that it shares three parts--I mean that it shares its design. The head would probably snug right down on a 1900 block. I don't mean to hammer on this...

--Carter
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  #80 (permalink)  
Old 10-21-2005, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtv2000
While in a mood of disagreeing , I would stand on Stu's side about reserving the Disco Volante designation to the original, wing shaped cars, including the "Fianchi stretti", extension to the CMs being, IMO, improper. I've met once Bianchi Anderloni one year before his death. He impressed me very much as such a sweet, pleasant person, just happy to be there to talk about beautiful cars without fuss. But I'm sorry to say that I remained unimpressed by the contents of his DV book.
My point is not to disagree with the logic of what Stu wants, but rather to say that it just doesn't matter. [Though I have no idea why you'd like to include the narrow sided car because it is precisely not a flying saucer].

What Anderloni reports is true: for Alfa, and for all of the old timers, all of the cars we are talking about are Discos. The flying saucer cars are Disco Volantes. The rest are Discos. This was explained to me second hand, but with much of the same amusement as Anderloni expresses. I'll leave the names as Busso and Sanesi used them.

As for Anderloni's book, well, I had lunch with him once. I sat next to him and his wife and I asked him about how the design of the 1900 Touring evolved from the early cars to the sleek smooth lines of the late CSS. He told me about how the design was first intended for the 3.0 litre car, but that the design development which I saw as so radical was for him "just like the changes of the seasons." no dates, no data, no hard information, but an understanding.

I think Anderloni's book is just that: it gives us a framework and a pretty good idea of how things progressed, but with the sense of a casual afternoon looking at photographs and talking about old friends. It isn't the whole story. But that's ok.

--Carter
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  #81 (permalink)  
Old 10-21-2005, 12:05 PM
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Picture of the 6C3000CM engine.
it seems logic with the similarity between 6C3000 and 4c1900, when they didn't know what way to go , they just made an engine +- 2 cylinders,
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  #82 (permalink)  
Old 10-21-2005, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarterHendricks
My point is not to disagree with the logic of what Stu wants, but rather to say that it just doesn't matter. [Though I have no idea why you'd like to include the narrow sided car because it is precisely not a flying saucer].

What Anderloni reports is true: for Alfa, and for all of the old timers, all of the cars we are talking about are Discos. The flying saucer cars are Disco Volantes. The rest are Discos. This was explained to me second hand, but with much of the same amusement as Anderloni expresses. I'll leave the names as Busso and Sanesi used them.

As for Anderloni's book, well, I had lunch with him once. I sat next to him and his wife and I asked him about how the design of the 1900 Touring evolved from the early cars to the sleek smooth lines of the late CSS. He told me about how the design was first intended for the 3.0 litre car, but that the design development which I saw as so radical was for him "just like the changes of the seasons." no dates, no data, no hard information, but an understanding.

I think Anderloni's book is just that: it gives us a framework and a pretty good idea of how things progressed, but with the sense of a casual afternoon looking at photographs and talking about old friends. It isn't the whole story. But that's ok.

--Carter

I agree that it really doesn't matter if all the cars are called Discos or not...but I do think it is easier to understand what was going on if the C-52 cars (including the flat sided car) are put in a seperate group from the 6c3000CMs.

Although the chassis and motors are related, they do have fairly substantial differences. It's not really the coachwork itself that made me suggest that the cars be seperated..
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  #83 (permalink)  
Old 10-21-2005, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dretceterini
To add another thought, what was the realtion to the Sportiva motors?
I think: The Sportiva was just a 1900 Super engine--but of a hybrid configuration that was used by some of the later cars, in order to use the hotter camshafts Landsberg designed for the 1884cc TI. These motors have the old lower gear drive [most Supers had chains top and bottom, like later Alfas] and so can use the reverse rotation camshafts. But in this case the lower gear drive is necessary to power the dry sump pump, which is at least similar to the Matta unit. The car used 50DCO3 carburetors. I think some of the description in Fusi is miswritten but I think the 138HP is realistic

--Carter
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  #84 (permalink)  
Old 10-21-2005, 04:15 PM
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First of all: Bump
Quote:
What we really need is for an authority to pick up this Disco Volante thread and separate it from the original lost topic.
Many thanks again for your commitment! Highly sofisticated engine discussion!
I can only bring in another photo of the 6C3000 engine being mounted into car #0011.

And this here should be a 6C3000CM engine.


@Boudewijn, I am again astonished about the photos you bring in!
About those from Merano, I know where there are from But anyway I appreciate your help very much! Further you make me too curious about your files;-)

@Alex, the story of Antonietto Fossati should not be forgotten!
I remember a photograph in the Dutch Alfa mag showing a crashed Disco Volante Spider on a trailer.
So there has happened an accident with one of the early Discos!
Depressing detail is the death of the policeman!
I keep that in mind....if the story happened that way, the killed policeman was surely mentioned in contemporary newspapers. If I'll ever find something about the story, I will surely post it herein

@gtv2000, do you have in mind which source explains Karl Kling's accident during free practise for the Nurburgring race with a rabbit?
I never came over this story before!

For your entertainment and to underline my doubt concerning the rabbit, I translated the corresponding passage from the book "Jagd nach dem Sieg" by Karl Kling and Günther Molter:

From the chapter "Ein Jahr mit Alfa Romeo".
He remembers his second pactise lap on the Ring as below:
(date 11. August 1953)
"At the end of the straight I breaked, shifted down and pushed through
the Südkehre into the Gegengerade. The engine had a clean and sober
sound. With highspeed my red Alfa ran down the Hatzenbach, then passing
Flugplatz and through the Fuchsröhre.
With howling engine, I pushed the car into Wehrsiepen. At the last right
turn, before the bridge that crosses the little canyon, I shifted down
to second gear and braked hard.
With whistling tyres the Alfa pushed through the corner. Now I had to
hit the entry to the bridge as exactely as possible.
WHAT WAS THAT????
Without reacting to the steeringwheel the car went straight ahead.
Before I could use my mind, the bridge was flying towards me. I pushed
myself as hard as I could against the steeringwheel and the floor.
In the last second I could see the concrete of the bridge appearing
like a huge wall right infront of me, then the car crashed through the
concrete.
I was aware of what happened all the time.
Pieces of concrete were flying in the air, the Alfa tumed itself upside
down, made a double loop and landed on the front end, then it tumbled
back on its wheels.
I immediately shut down the ignition to avoid fire and went off through
the door.
I ran as far away as possible, but after same meters I felt strong pain
in my chest and I had to rest."

Karl Kling was injured and remained some weeks in hospital.
He tried to recover as soon as possible, because he hoped that the Alfa company would participate in the Carrera Panamericana race later that year.
But this was his last drive as an official Alfa works-driver :-(
Btw, Kling was borrowed to Alfa by Mercedes. In 1953 Mercedes didn't participate in racing, they paused this year to return in full strengh in 1954.

Back to the accident of Kling. Alfa Romeo sent two cars to the Ring, the other one was driven by Sanesi. But they withdraw due to Kling's accident.
And they took the wreck, a total loss, back home to Italy.
The chassis number of the crashed car is not known, this opens some interesting possibilities...
What did they do with the wreck?
Put it to waste, or repair it?
Or give it to a promising and talented designer who just founded his own company, called Carrozzeria Boano. Just guessing....

Last remark, Kling crashed in August, the Merano race was in September. Maybe he was planned to drive one of the Alfas in Merano that DNS...

Best regards
Ciao Carlo
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  #85 (permalink)  
Old 10-22-2005, 02:09 AM
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Looking at the pictures of the 6C3000CM engines, we see the tubes on the cylinder head. I have always seen these as a outside part of the cooling system because the internal gallery for water was insufficient. Is that correct
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  #86 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2005, 06:25 AM
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Start at LeMans 1953 Kling Riess at the wheel
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  #87 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2005, 06:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2000 touring sp
Looking at the pictures of the 6C3000CM engines, we see the tubes on the cylinder head. I have always seen these as a outside part of the cooling system because the internal gallery for water was insufficient. Is that correct
I'm not sure this feature also appears on the production-intended 6C3000 engine. In some cases, that can be a deliberate design to have the water collected through external tubing, as a way to have a less complicated head casting (easier to produce, lighter), for instance.

Or as you suspect, original internal coolant flow was not suffficient for racing, and external tubes are an addition.
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  #88 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2005, 06:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2000 touring sp
Start at LeMans 1953 Kling Riess at the wheel
Nice pic, never seen before. Thanks. From a magazine, I guess.
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  #89 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2005, 07:26 AM
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No , it is from a book about LeMans written by David Hodges back in 1963. It contains a short story of every LeMans up to and included 1963
Boudeweijn helped me to convert the picture from my own scanning to a format that was connectable to this site.
There will come some of the PF super flow and super sport
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  #90 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2005, 07:42 AM
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carlo stated
#1361 00126: Colli Coupe, 1953 LM Kling/Riess #23, 1954 rebodied by Boano and gifted to Persident J.M. Peron, the car passed several hands until it came into the hands of, again, Henry Wessels. Crashed in the 80ies, the car currently has a recreation of the Colli body, as seen in many historic events.
Here are some pictures of the Boano .
I think that Boano did a wonderful design and he was faithful to the Touring Coupe design
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