6C3000 CM - Page 3 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums

  #31 (permalink)  
Old 10-18-2005, 09:43 AM
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I have e-mailed them, asking for photos. I have no idea exactly what it is either...but it certainly is NOT a factory 6c 3000 CM
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 10-18-2005, 12:59 PM
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Who hijacked this thread????
I remember the headline
Quote:
P3 1934
Anyway, I can't resist putting some facts into the discussion....

Built in 1952:
#1359 00001 Spider C52 2-litre engine (now in Alfa museum)
#1359 00002 Spider C52 2-litre engine "Spider a fianchi stretti", or "narrow-sided" Spider (now in Schlumpf museum)
#1361 00011 Spider 6C3000 3-litre engine, body like 00001 (now in Biscaretti museum)

All three cars were built simultaneously in 1952 and all of them are members of the series callled Disco Volante.
Cars 001 and 011 were only tested on the track of Monza, they never raced.

The narrow-sided Spider was created for hillclimbs. The sides were designed flat so that the driver had a better feeling for the dimensions of the car.
Contrary to the other Discos, car 002 was borrowed to some Italian race drivers, who tested the narrow-sided Spider in some minor events in south Italy and in Sicily. Then it was purchased by Swiss driver Ducrey who later sold it to the Schlumpf brothers.

Built in 1953:
#1359 00002 Coupe 2-litre (Now in Alfa museum)
#1361 00012 Spider 3 or 3.5-litre dismantled

These are all cars of the Disco series.

The competition cars, officially named 6C3000CM, were built in 1953.
Although "politically" not correct many people name those cars Disco Volante as well.
I wondered why and how this nickname got transfered to another series of cars.
After viewing a lot of contemporary material, I realized whom to blame for this. It simply was Alfa Romeo themselfs who kept the myth and the name alife.
Remember that the 1952 Disco Volantes were a flop!
In order to avoid the bad publicity of withdrawing the cars, another series, the 6C3000CM, was built and the nickname was kept.
By this, it looked as if the racing department developed the Discos to a higher level. In fact the 6C cars were completely different!


About the Disco Volante 6C3000CM cars, I try to keep myself as short as possible. I just name the famous and later rebodied cars.

#1361 00125: Colli Coupe, 1953 MM Kling/Klenk #603, 1953 LM Fangio/Marimon #22, 1954 sold to Joakim Bonnier, due to an accident rebodied as Spider by Zagato, Jobo raced the car 1955 in Sweden and 1956 in GB, then it was sold to Henry Wessles, who later sold it to Yoshiyuki Hayashi

#1361 00126: Colli Coupe, 1953 LM Kling/Riess #23, 1954 rebodied by Boano and gifted to Persident J.M. Peron, the car passed several hands until it came into the hands of, again, Henry Wessels. Crashed in the 80ies, the car currently has a recreation of the Colli body, as seen in many historic events.

#1361 00128: Colli Coupe, 1953 MM Fangio/Sala, 1953 LM spare-car #68 Stagnoli/Palmeri, 1954 sold to Pinin Farina; 1956 presented as "Super Flow" at Torino show, later that year the same car was shown as "Super Flow II" at the Paris show; 1959 on the same chassis Pinin presented the "Spyder Super Sport" at Geneva; in 1960 the last body, named "Coupe Super Sport Speziale", was presented at Geneva as well.
The car is now in the Rosso Bianco collection in Germany.

I hope you didn't fall asleep by all these boring data;-)

Ciao Carlo
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 10-18-2005, 01:19 PM
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All three 6C 3000CM in one pic.
Attached Images
 

Last edited by Boudewijn; 12-04-2007 at 02:02 PM.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 10-18-2005, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carlo
Who hijacked this thread????
I remember the headline

Anyway, I can't resist putting some facts into the discussion....

Built in 1952:
#1359 00001 Spider C52 2-litre engine (now in Alfa museum)
#1359 00002 Spider C52 2-litre engine "Spider a fianchi stretti", or "narrow-sided" Spider (now in Schlumpf museum)
#1361 00011 Spider 6C3000 3-litre engine, body like 00001 (now in Biscaretti museum)

All three cars were built simultaneously in 1952 and all of them are members of the series callled Disco Volante.
Cars 001 and 011 were only tested on the track of Monza, they never raced.

The narrow-sided Spider was created for hillclimbs. The sides were designed flat so that the driver had a better feeling for the dimensions of the car.
Contrary to the other Discos, car 002 was borrowed to some Italian race drivers, who tested the narrow-sided Spider in some minor events in south Italy and in Sicily. Then it was purchased by Swiss driver Ducrey who later sold it to the Schlumpf brothers.

Built in 1953:
#1359 00002 Coupe 2-litre (Now in Alfa museum)
#1361 00012 Spider 3 or 3.5-litre dismantled

These are all cars of the Disco series.

The competition cars, officially named 6C3000CM, were built in 1953.
Although "politically" not correct many people name those cars Disco Volante as well.
I wondered why and how this nickname got transfered to another series of cars.
After viewing a lot of contemporary material, I realized whom to blame for this. It simply was Alfa Romeo themselfs who kept the myth and the name alife.
Remember that the 1952 Disco Volantes were a flop!
In order to avoid the bad publicity of withdrawing the cars, another series, the 6C3000CM, was built and the nickname was kept.
By this, it looked as if the racing department developed the Discos to a higher level. In fact the 6C cars were completely different!


About the Disco Volante 6C3000CM cars, I try to keep myself as short as possible. I just name the famous and later rebodied cars.

#1361 00125: Colli Coupe, 1953 MM Kling/Klenk #603, 1953 LM Fangio/Marimon #22, 1954 sold to Joakim Bonnier, due to an accident rebodied as Spider by Zagato, Jobo raced the car 1955 in Sweden and 1956 in GB, then it was sold to Henry Wessles, who later sold it to Yoshiyuki Hayashi

#1361 00126: Colli Coupe, 1953 LM Kling/Riess #23, 1954 rebodied by Boano and gifted to Persident J.M. Peron, the car passed several hands until it came into the hands of, again, Henry Wessels. Crashed in the 80ies, the car currently has a recreation of the Colli body, as seen in many historic events.

#1361 00128: Colli Coupe, 1953 MM Fangio/Sala, 1953 LM spare-car #68 Stagnoli/Palmeri, 1954 sold to Pinin Farina; 1956 presented as "Super Flow" at Torino show, later that year the same car was shown as "Super Flow II" at the Paris show; 1959 on the same chassis Pinin presented the "Spyder Super Sport" at Geneva; in 1960 the last body, named "Coupe Super Sport Speziale", was presented at Geneva as well.
The car is now in the Rosso Bianco collection in Germany.

I hope you didn't fall asleep by all these boring data;-)

Ciao Carlo
How about putting 1361 00127, the Supercortemaggiore car, into this list?
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 10-18-2005, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
How about putting 1361 00127, the Supercortemaggiore car, into this list?
Why not

But we talked about this car already here in this thread, and I have nothing to add or to correct, so I remain quiet
Quote:
All three 6C 3000CM in one pic
Aehmm, without offending you...all FOUR car are on the truck

AND many thanks for your amazing photo!!!
Never seen before! May I ask for your source????

I attached another interesting picture showing both generations.
Sorry for the bad quality.


Ciao Carlo
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 10-18-2005, 02:14 PM
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Thanks. I'm sorry but I don't remember the source of the pic.
It's always possible to improve the pic quality like in your case. I added one more.
Attached Images
  
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 10-18-2005, 02:42 PM
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The history of the discos is fascinating but not entirely clear. Much of this thread has just fogged things up.

All of these sports racing cars are Discos. It doesn’t matter what any of us think. It doesn’t even matter if it quite makes sense. Alfa Romeo, and all of the old timers who were there, fondly called all of these cars Discos. The flying saucer cars, those were the Disco Volante. But the name “Disco” still covers all of these cars.

Anderloni himself was bemused by the whole thing. As the designer of the flying saucer, he had more right than Stu to be upset by the confusion. But in his own book “Disco Volante” Anderloni didn’t correct the misnomer: he explained it and accepted it.

The cars became diverse. The first two cars were Disco Volante models, one with the new 4 cylinder, one with the old 6 cylinder left over from the C50 and derived from the 6C3000. [The two engines, 4 & 6, are sisters]. The earliest test photos, interesting, are of the 6 cylinder car.

What we now think of as the hillclimb car was soon underway. That car was called the car with narrow sides [“Fianchi Stretti”]. That car proudly wore Carrozzeria Touring badges in all period photographs.

This elegant Touring design is entirely different from the subsequent Colli 6C3000CM bodies or from the early Colli 1900 Spider. That was a different private car built at arm’s length from Alfa, and bodied by Colli.

The car that went to Bonnier is 00125, isn’t it? –the Fangio LeMans coupe. It was for sure at Zagato in the summer of ’55 with no body at all, and showing no serious deep damage. In 56 it was raced including at Varacas.

When Henry Wessells got the car from Bonnier it was blue with a yellow hood, but the design had already morphed a little over time and races, and it would continue to change. It went through a series of owners and colors and more races and crashes before Hayashi.

Henry also owned 00126, which was another Colli racing coupe, then rebodied by Boano for Alfa [and Peron], then rebodied to Colli pattern after Henry’s big crash.

00128 is still with Peter Kaus, but no longer under the PF show car body. The PF body appeared at Amelia Island but it was carried clumsily by an historically unrelated 6C2500 chassis. The 6C3000CM chassis may now become something else, maybe the Fangio MM car it probably was, maybe not. Henry has never owned this car.

The 6C3000PR was fated to be the last of the Discos. The car was a 3.0 but not with the same technical characteristics as the old C50 engine. Bore was the 87mm of the 3.5 litre car but the stroke was reduced and so the engine speed could increase. There were other detail engine differences. And the PR was more than shortened—it had a new frame design. No old car was made into the PR. The car was tested, crashed, burned. Several spare engines and some other parts—and some drawings—survive.

Much of the confusion was the result of Alfa’s pace of development. The Disco began as a simple tube frame holding Alfa 1900 based running gear, and became perhaps the quickest sports racing car in the world. There never was any shame or embarrassment. The Disco Volante body was tried, then superceded. Even the early 6 cylinder motor needed a more sophisticated chassis. The later 6C3000CM simply provided that chassis.

In 1953, Fangio placed second in the Mille Miglia in a broken 6C3000CM. In that same race, the always-too-fast Sanesi led the race until a fault caused his crash. The Alfas were faster than the Lancias, or even the big engined Ferraris. The car was powerful, the car had friendly handling on all surfaces, the car even had great brakes: in the front were 4 leading shoes, each derived from the already oversized 1900 brakes, sticking in and out of the rims and wrapping around the spindles, all attached to a cast backing plate incorporating all of the wheel cylinders. Amazing stuff.

Some of the mistakes in this thread are just chassis numbers and registry history. But the error that must be corrected is the misconception that the 6C3000CM was “not much of a sports car.” The 6C3000CM was fast, powerful and quick.

The proof of that was lost in history. Alfa’s pace of development could not be maintained. It wasn’t just the Discos, it was the Corto Gara, then it was the design and development of the Giulietta, the design of the new Grand Prix car, and the new small car. Results required consistency that Alfa sorely lacked. But the 6C3000CM was something else, and the performance at the '53 MM is proof enough.

But there’s more: I have been looking for a photo that I know I saw in MotorSport. I can’t find it. It’s Henry’s old car, Phil Hill driving, I think at the LeMans historic meet, surrounded by D Types. The 6C3000CM has had an impressive new career racing against the continuously developed Jaguars.

--Carter

Last edited by CarterHendricks; 10-18-2005 at 03:17 PM.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 10-18-2005, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarterHendricks
. But the 6C3000CM was something else, and the performance at LeMans is proof enough.

--Carter
[writing too fast!]

performance at MM.

--Carter
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 10-18-2005, 02:54 PM
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Notice the C52 aluminum block in the Disco Volante photo. The last time I saw the Spider it had an iron block [but still had its aluminum differential housing].

--Carter

[The 1900 was planned to have an aluminum block, but...]
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 10-18-2005, 04:07 PM
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Regarding the wonderful photo of the cars on the transporter:

1953 LeMans entries

21 Consalvo Sanesi / I Alfa Romeo 6C 30 1361.00123

22 Juan Manuel Fangio / RA Alfa Romeo 6C 30 1361.00126

23 Karl Kling / D Alfa Romeo 6C 30 1361.00125

68 Antonio Stagnoli / I Alfa Romeo 6C 30 1361.00128


from: http://wspr-racing.com/wspr/results/...emans1953.html

The photo includes car 68, which is probably 00128. This car has some... ambiguities and it is good to see it on the trailer.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 10-18-2005, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarterHendricks
[writing too fast!]

performance at MM.

--Carter
I believe the 6c 3000 CM also had the fastest speed through the traps at Le Mans in 1953, in spite of the fact there were cars with larger engines


Also interesting is that the 2 liter C-52 cars (including the slab sided car and the coupe) have a 1359 prefix and the 3 liter cars with that body style have a 1361 prefix. I still question if both 1361-00011 and 1361-00012 were both actually built.

Further...in Carlo's post it indicates the same chassis number for both the
C-52 2 liter coupe and the C-52 slab sided car; 1359-00002. Both cars exist, so obviously they can't have the same chassis number.

What I find most disappointing about this thread and similar ones is how few seem to be interested

Last edited by dretceterini; 10-18-2005 at 05:20 PM.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 10-18-2005, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dretceterini
Also interesting is that the 2 liter C-52 cars (including the slab sided car and the coupe) have a 1359 prefix and the 3 liter cars with that body style have a 1361 prefix. I still question if both 1361-00011 and 1361-00012 were both actually built.
This I think, but I am not certain: We know that the 6 cylinder cars had their own designation when they were built alongside the 4 cylinder cars. That conforms with standard Alfa type practice. But the 6 cyl cars are referred to casually as 6C3000 cars. When the new 6C3000CM cars were designed and given their own numbering system, perhaps the old cars were brought forward and included. Now my spread sheet and Fusi's numbers look clearer. Maybe not true, but clearer.

I am blown away by the photos.


--Carter
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 10-18-2005, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dretceterini
What I find most disappointing about this thread and similar ones is how few seem to be interested
Stu, don't read as disinterest what may simply be lack of enough knowledge with which to participate. I find the cars lovely and fascinating (I even have a Disco Volante as my computer's desktop), but I simply don't have any expertise I can contribute. So I quietly read, and I'd bet others do, too.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 10-18-2005, 06:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Farace
Stu, don't read as disinterest what may simply be lack of enough knowledge with which to participate. I find the cars lovely and fascinating (I even have a Disco Volante as my computer's desktop), but I simply don't have any expertise I can contribute. So I quietly read, and I'd bet others do, too.
I'll second that comment. Even though I am a keen (if somewhat youthful) enthusiast, I must admit that in this discrete area I just have to sit back and absorb the learned knowledge of those with far greater experience, both in the technical and historical spheres. That some of you guys take the time to share this, often gleaned first-hand, is a privilege for the rest of us, and essential if this community of knowledge is to be propagated and nurtured in years to come. So thanks to you all.

Alex.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 10-18-2005, 08:19 PM
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Well, that's nice to hear
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