6C3000 CM

[iicarJohn]

Unfortunately ... you'll have to hold your breath for a while yet.

[Alex]

Don't quite know if this car belongs in the same thread, but I've never seen this one before - described as a 6C 3500 CM.

Link

[Il Vecchio]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Don't quite know if this car belongs in the same thread, but I've never seen this one before - described as a 6C 3500 CM. Link

[phila3885]

Gentlemen- I just discovered this thread and wanted to add pictures of what to me was a most amazing discovery I made in my own neighborhood 2 days ago . These two cars are in a shop just around the corner from me in Torrance, CA undergoing full restorations. I took these pictures yesterday. A technician there was kind enough to let me snoop around, and take a few ouside shots. I wasn't able to get too close to the cars without the shop owners' permission. The first car is obviously the second Superflow; it was represented to me by the (quite young) technician as Fangio's car and owned privately; the chassis was removed and undergoing separate restoration. (number??) The words "Super Sport" appear in script on the dash, no other model badging except the Pininfarina badge on the side. The second car I add just for interest and perhaps it belongs in a separate thread. It was a 1900 according to the technician; he popped the hood briefly for me and I searched for a readily visible chassis no. but couldn't see one. The engine appeared vintage Alfa 6 cylinder, the engine compartment and firewall were covered in a thick insulation that didn't look vintage to my eye. I asked if it was a recreation or real and he didn't know. Also in private hands. I'm looking forward to reading this thread from the start and hope this is new information. If these cars are well known, I apologize because i'm new to this Alfa archaeology!

[iicarJohn]

There were four stylistic teasers brought out by Pinin Farina in succession, all on the "3000CM" chassis numbered "00128". All of the Pinin Farina renditions have been shown earlier in this thread, most of them more than once. Although it is possible that the chassis had an earlier identity there is nothing yet to really tell us this is fact. A rendition of the Milano license plate from 00124 was used for a time in the 1970's when the car was in private hands and it is the only "clue", albeit not a good one, of the car's (presumed by some) earlier origins. As a mental exercise, what would you think of a Duetto that appeared at a show today wearing that same Milano plate? Would it prove anything about the car's origins? Now put the same plate (mentally) on a Fiat 600 and see what you think. Regardless, I am not aware of any Alfa Romeo use of the plate (MI212038) on "00128". Please correct me if you know better. As a matter of information, the plate MI212038, assigned to chassis 00124, was cancelled by Alfa Romeo with a declaration of "demolito" describing the car's finish. This would have made the plate legally non-valid after that time.

Some discussion has appeared earlier on this thread about the seeming unlikeliness of all four special Pinin Farina bodies having been on the same chassis. If you think about it, however, it makes sense. Pinin Farina was given one chassis to use and it was very special. Through the mid-fifties, the 3000CM was the quintissential high-end Alfa Romeo and was not routinely made available to the public, despite two exceptions. We can argue about whether there were six chassis or seven or eight in all, but the fact is, there were not many of these cars to choose from and Pinin Farina had the use of only one of them. If each stylistic presentation was to capture maximum attention, it was probably considered necessary to have a proven attention-getter in the underlying specification as well. Styling mock-ups rarely get the same kind of attention that a functional car does, particularly true if the underlying car has some prestige.

From all accounts, the first body, called "Super Flow" (a.k.a. "Superflow") was hastily conceived and executed, just in time for the Salone Torino in April of 1956. Perhaps there was a plan all along or perhaps the body was not entirely satisfying to the creators? Regardless of the planned or unplanned motivations, the body was replaced, or at a minimum highly revised, to make the "Super Flow II" ("Superflow II") for the Salon Paris, October 1956. For the Salon Geneve in March of 1959, the chassis was rebodied yet again, this time to a spyder configuration that was known as "Super Sport". Another new body was done for Geneva in 1960 and that is the body shown above by "Alex" and earlier in the thread by others.

The car, (while still in Switzerland?), was tested by Karl Ludvigsen for Sports Cars Illustrated, February 1961. The car came to the USA in the early 1960's and later was subject of a Dean Batchelor "Salon" feature in Road and Track magazine for September, 1974. At one point, late in the 1970's, the statement was made that "00128" had 31 previous owners! The car has been seen by many people, myself included, in the following years. I remember seeing the engine, hearing it run and seeing it lean over on the track. I don't think I ever looked at the chassis and, at the time I saw it, I quite frankly would not have known enough to say what might or might not have been "correct" or "incorrect" about it. In retrospect, however, it does seem to me that I recall being a bit surprised at the non-race-car chassis behaviour of a supposed race-car chassis.

Now we come to today and Carter Hendricks' observations that the chassis and suspension under the Pinin Farina body, as seen in 2005, is not actually 3000CM in configuration and detail. To my way of thinking, this makes for two interesting possibilities. Most obvious is that the Pinin Farina body was PERHAPS removed from the 6C3000CM chassis and was then fitted to a functional equivalent using 6C2500 (and probably other) parts. Theoretically, this would then free up an original 3000CM chassis to perhaps become a "Colli" bodied car "once again" in the minds of whoever might be considering it. But, what if "00128" never was on an actual 3000CM chassis? What if the chassis was a hasty mock-up all along? I don't know the answer yet but I'm sure we can figure it out. Now we would like to find someone who made a note or perhaps took a photo of the chassis/suspension configuration in earlier years. One photo per year would be nice!

[iicarJohn]

Now, a question for "Alex" or at least some information inspired by your earlier comments about Antonietto Fossati and his statements about having crashed a "Disco" at Monza, killing a policeman. I'm sure that I could find more about him if I really tried but here is what is in my computer.

Antonio Fossati raced a Lancia B20 on the 1955 Mille Miglia and finished either 79th or 80th overall (depending on the source) and was 24th in the GT class over 1300cc regardless. In 1955, he raced a Giulietta Sprint at Monza in the Coppa Inter-Europa but failed to finish. A "Fossati" was entered in a Giulietta Sprint on the Giro di Sicilia of 1956 but was not listed as a finisher. Antonio Fossati raced in the Giulietta Sprint on the 1956 Mille Miglia but failed to finish. If he was any relation to either Guido Fossati or Ignacio Radice Fossati, also of the Milan area, then there might be additional implications, but thus far there is nothing otherwise to imply that "Antonietto" was any kind of insider at Alfa Romeo. But, having been sensitized to the name, I probably will find more as I go through my files while researching related and unrelated topics.

Alex, is there any chance that you could contact Antonietto and ask him if there is any additional information (open or closed body?, approximate date of his crash?, Was it part of an event?) to be learned?

[iicarJohn]

Thank you "Phila3885". Very interesting. Thanks for sharing.

Now the waters will probably be muddied even more but at least we have a chance to see history in the making, remaking and retelling. Torrance? That's only about six-seven hours drive from here. Hmmm.

If you have an opportunity to visit again and "snoop" (with permission) a bit more, I would be interested in the following information from any of the cars and parts. Naturally, organizing the information so that each data collection speaks of only one car will minimize the chance of confusing me.

chassis number
engine number
carburetor numbers
chassis photo with front suspension
chassis photo with rear suspension
any numbers that appear on components, such as suspension units, gearbox, steering box, radiator, etc.

Oh, and the "Super Sport" Pinin Farina body might still have some remnants of its Pinin Farina body number. Getting that will probably take overt cooperation from someone who is working on the car as it is likely that some trim items will have to be removed in order to find a trace of it. There would be five digits in all, most likely, but it would not be unusual to find only two or three of the digits stamped or scratched or crayoned on a normally hidden area of most parts.

[Alex]

Hi John,

I've already written everything that I know about the incident, as it was part of an anecdote told to me over ten years ago when I was having dinner at the Fossati Hotel near Monza (I worked there over the summer vacation while at university). Antonietto must be in his early 80s by now, but he had a sprightly mind and I doubt he forgets much. I'll do my best for you, but it might take a while for the information to filter through.

Cheers,

Alex.

[CarterHendricks]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iicarJohn T Now we come to today and Carter Hendricks' observations that the chassis and suspension under the Pinin Farina body, as seen in 2005, is not actually 3000CM in configuration and detail. To my way of thinking, this makes for two interesting possibilities. Most obvious is that the Pinin Farina body was PERHAPS removed from the 6C3000CM chassis and was then fitted to a functional equivalent using 6C2500 (and probably other) parts. Theoretically, this would then free up an original 3000CM chassis to perhaps become a "Colli" bodied car "once again" in the minds of whoever might be considering it. But, what if "00128" never was on an actual 3000CM chassis? What if the chassis was a hasty mock-up all along? I don't know the answer yet but I'm sure we can figure it out. Now we would like to find someone who made a note or perhaps took a photo of the chassis/suspension configuration in earlier years. One photo per year would be nice!

[tubut]

Great pictures, Phil!

The second car seems to be a recreation as discussed here and here.

[carlo]

Quote:

Gentlemen- I just discovered this thread and wanted to add pictures of what to me was a most amazing discovery I made in my own neighborhood 2 days ago . These two cars are in a shop just around the corner from me in Torrance, CA undergoing full restorations. I took these pictures yesterday. A technician there was kind enough to let me snoop around, and take a few ouside shots. I wasn't able to get too close to the cars without the shop owners' permission. The first car is obviously the second Superflow; it was represented to me by the (quite young) technician as Fangio's car and owned privately; the chassis was removed and undergoing separate restoration. (number??) The words "Super Sport" appear in script on the dash, no other model badging except the Pininfarina badge on the side. The second car I add just for interest and perhaps it belongs in a separate thread. It was a 1900 according to the technician; he popped the hood briefly for me and I searched for a readily visible chassis no. but couldn't see one. The engine appeared vintage Alfa 6 cylinder, the engine compartment and firewall were covered in a thick insulation that didn't look vintage to my eye. I asked if it was a recreation or real and he didn't know. Also in private hands. I'm looking forward to reading this thread from the start and hope this is new information. If these cars are well known, I apologize because i'm new to this Alfa archaeology!

[iicarJohn]

Yes Carlo.

I just checked some magazines and Autocourse shows the second body already at the Salon Paris in 1956. Correcting my earlier post ... posthaste!

John

[iicarJohn]

Thanks for the input.

I agree that the proposed concept of the "00128" chassis having always been a mockup is a bit far-fetched. But it should be confirmed one way or another. More importantly ...

Aside from the rendering of the Milano plate original to 00124 that was used by Jackson Brooks on 00128 in the 1970's ... which is no evidence at all ... is there any evidence that 00128 was actually built from the chassis of 00124? If so, what is that evidence? Although a restoration involving a rebody can be justified in some ways, it would indeed be a pity to separate a body from a chassis in order to recreate a car that was not the chassis or engine donor in times of old.

All the best.

John

[dretceterini]

Quote:

Originally Posted by phila3885 Gentlemen- I just discovered this thread and wanted to add pictures of what to me was a most amazing discovery I made in my own neighborhood 2 days ago . These two cars are in a shop just around the corner from me in Torrance, CA undergoing full restorations. I took these pictures yesterday. A technician there was kind enough to let me snoop around, and take a few ouside shots. I wasn't able to get too close to the cars without the shop owners' permission. The first car is obviously the second Superflow; it was represented to me by the (quite young) technician as Fangio's car and owned privately; the chassis was removed and undergoing separate restoration. (number??) The words "Super Sport" appear in script on the dash, no other model badging except the Pininfarina badge on the side. The second car I add just for interest and perhaps it belongs in a separate thread. It was a 1900 according to the technician; he popped the hood briefly for me and I searched for a readily visible chassis no. but couldn't see one. The engine appeared vintage Alfa 6 cylinder, the engine compartment and firewall were covered in a thick insulation that didn't look vintage to my eye. I asked if it was a recreation or real and he didn't know. Also in private hands. I'm looking forward to reading this thread from the start and hope this is new information. If these cars are well known, I apologize because i'm new to this Alfa archaeology!