6C3000 CM

[iicarJohn]

Stu, you had me worried for a moment! But, looking at the listing I see only "Colli" next to 00121, 00122 and 00124. I have some basic information that describe the cars from a bureaucratic standpoint, but that kind of information is often inaccurate for these sorts of cars so I have not listed it and will not list it until confirmation is received or found.

Having had another look at the listing, this is what I probably should have communicated differently, even in 1994:

Instead of labelling the listing, "Disco Volante and deriv.", it probably should be, "Disco Volante 2000, Disco Volante 3000, 3000CM and Sportiva". Or something like that?

"Tipo 3000" was observed on an ID plate fitted to 00011. "Prototipo 3500" was part of the description of the same car. In thinking about it again, I think that 00011 was described correctly in my listing as "Disco Volante" as that is the way it was born. Despite what Magro told me! If it became "prototipo 3500" after the fact, then this would be part of the car's history but does not invalidate its origins as "Disco Volante". Particularly if the chassis was not changed along with engine specification ... if the specification was indeed changed.

The words, "spider" and "coupe" should not be capitalized for any of the entries as both are descriptors and are not part of the actual name of any of these cars. When it comes down to it, "coupe" is not technically correct in a sense as the body does not have the "notchback" feature characteristic of that body description as originally coined and used. The description of the closed cars should probably be "berlinetta".

Stu, although your description rings a vague bell, I don't have a specific memory of a gullwing Alfa Romeo "competizione" sort of car. There are still a couple of specially-bodied 6C2500 cars that have yet to be identified and I will not be surprised to learn of others. I understand your frustration but I question the wisdom of speculating in public as to the origins of materials that may not have been "stolen" as well as taking a "friend" to task in public for not supplying something to you that is his. Have you considered offering a trade?

There is additional information that has been located that indicates that the 3000PR was chassis N. 00012. Although not unlikely, questions remain ...

In looking again, I note that I included the Disco Volante 2000 cars not only twice on page 67 (the duplication having been removed from the scan posted earlier in this thread) but also included them as part of the 1900 listing on the previous page. I guess I must have really wanted to make sure they were listed! Obviously, I simply did not pay enough attention during the editing.

Turning to the Sportiva cars listed on page 67, the car that was with (and presumably is with?) Gallery Abarth is 00004 ... as I suspected but still listed (1994) separately as a "lead". I suspect that the N. 00001 car in the "Sportiva" series was the car that was similar to the spider Bertone car that was promoted as "750 Competizione" but I have not seen anything concrete to confirm this.

I will remind the reader who does not know me that there are at least seven questions asked and implied in this posting. I am not presuming that they can be answered without some serious efforts but perhaps someone has already gone to some effort (or has gotten "lucky") and is willing to share what they know?

I am working on updating the "Disco" listing and will share a more detailed listing here when I get it sorted out. It will take some time as I will be incorporating some of the information that has been presented in this thread. When done, I will ask that all who have contributed review the document and (hopefully) improve upon it.

An eighth question: Why should we care so much about these few cars that none of us are likely to own?

A ninth question: Does anyone really know what has happened (is happening?) with the 3000CM N. 00128?

A tenth question: Why doesn't someone who wishes to build so-called "replicars" consider "bringing back" all three previous versions of the Pinin Farina "Superflow" series that used chassis 00128? Done correctly, this would be a kind of service to the automotive styling history community. If it was done with Pininfarina involvement, the project might even have some positive acknowledgement from a majority of those who sit on the fence regarding other cars that have mysterious origins.

John de Boer
The Italian Car Registry

[2000 touring sp]

Thank you John for sharing you documents with us.
I think that a lot of solid history has reviled since 1994.
You mentioned "750 Competizione" as a part of the Sportiva effort. To my knowledge this is wrong, and I suppose that you are thinking of the Spider Sportiva prototypes that was also done by Bertone together with the Coupe.
Regarding the Abarth 2000 as a Sportiva. As the Abarth was built on a chassis with a live rear axle, and the design was inside job done by Abarth , and not with the DeDion rear axle layout from the Sportiva ,i my oppinion that exclude the Abarth as a Sportiva.

[Odin]

I don't know more about this cars, but I saw pictures of an 6C 3000 CM Engine, found in Argentine. This Engine went to England. Hope a little contribution.
Regards
Jörg

[dretceterini]

John:

I can only speak as to why I'm so interested....

My life has been devoted to the persuit of absolute truth, although I know as a physicist this is a pyrric venture.

I know 128 was in Rosso Bianco, but have no idea where it is now..

If I remember without checking, there were TWO Sportiva spiders and TWO coupes (4 chassis built).

The Alfa/Abarth 2000 has an Abarth chassis, and I consider it to be an Abarth with Alfa power, and NOT an Alfa

My "obsession" is really the Alfa Tipo 412s (8c2900A with 12c37 motors)...how many were actually made, etc...

[iicarJohn]

You are correct "2000 Touring sp". I must have gotten interrupted as there were six words missing from my text. I will make the appropriate edit. The phrase should have read "I suspect that the N. 00001 car in the "Sportiva" series was the car that was similar to the spider Bertone car that was promoted as "750 Competizione" but I have not seen anything concrete to confirm this."

Stu, my "eighth question" was intended to be more than a bit rhetorical. But, if you were to open a thread devoted to the 412 giving the information that is known to you after all your studies and interest, I might find myself inspired to add a bit of information that I've come across. If it should happen that I don't have anything to add in a real informational sense, I have a photo of some interesting (Sport 1100?) cars at an unidentified event where the 412 Vignale appears in the background. As far as production numbers, I believe it probable that there were only two 412 cars even though a third number has been reported for one of the two cars that are/were known. One is in the Schlumpf Collection/Musee National de France (reported as "412158" even though it probably was actually 412152) and the other (412151) exists today only as the engine (ex-Enrico Nardi ... from the Vignale spider) that was sold at auction a few years ago to Lawrence Auriana. I had an opportunity to see that engine after the sale and took a few photos that I didn't get a chance to review until I was sitting on a plane bound for Italy. One of the photos that I took of the ID plate and the 412 engine number showed also another number that was revealed by the lighting and shadow of the photo. I'd missed it with my eyes. The number was 50101, what I presume to be the first 12C (TipoC 12C-36) engine made. I haven't relocated that one photo that was most important (perhaps I gave it to Elvira Ruocco at Alfa Romeo?) and also haven't found the negative as yet, but I will find it one day. I've promised it to Simon Moore.

Odin, will you please place the sale of the 3000CM engine (to England) in a context at least of time as to when the sale was made? Or, at least, when did you see the photo? Is there any more information available? There was an engine that went several years ago to a guy in Italy who simply said it was "from South America". I was distracted by several other interesting items in his shop at the time and did not follow up on the engine info. Do you have access to the photo of the engine?

I'm not sure why the Abarth Alfa 1900 has made its way into this discussion as there is no indication whatsoever that Alfa Romeo had anything to do with it (or them, if there was more than one).

Back to work on the Disco/3000CM listing ...

John de Boer
The Italian Car Registry

[dretceterini]

There are a couple of threads on the 412 on Atlas. Here is one of them:
Atlas F1 Bulletin Board - Alfa 412 & 8C2900A

[Odin]

John,
Colin Crabbe showed me the Fotos of the engine in 1996, here in Chile, but I don't know, when he took the Engine to England.
Regards
Jörg

[carlo]

John,

thanks for your interesting infos and for publishing some of your data!
Please let me first refer to your first post 6C3000 CM
It is a funny coincidence that two weeks ago I came over the same topic (engine of #00011). I still have my notes beside my keyboard

For me there is no doubt that car #00011 is a Disco Volante, no matter who said what at Alfa Romeo!

The cars with the numbers 00001, 00002 and 00011 were built simultaneously, early in 1952. There are several photos that show the mechanics in the racing department working on all three cars at the same time.
In another production run, late in 1952, or early in 1953, cars 00003 and 00012 were built, the last cars that carried the name Disco Volante in the correct use.

00011 had in contrary to 00001 and 00002 a 3-liter motor.
The engine came from the Alfa Romeo 6C3000 C50, the Competitione Coupe that was driven by Sanesi-Bianchi in the 1950 Mille Miglia. After the accident of the car, the engine was shelved and came back to life in 00011.
There is no contradiction to that, as far as I know. In Het Klaverblaadje #33, Simon Moore and Ben Hendricks confirm that, just to name at least one source.
So I was also astonished to learn that the 6C3000 C50 engine today has a capacity of 3455cc - originally it had 2955cc.

Of course I would like to learn now when the engine capacity of 00011 was extended! Shouldn't we then call it also "CM"?

Further I would like to tell you my point of view why the 6C3000CM cars were called Disco Volante...
For me there is no doubt that the name Disco Volante was used by Alfa Romeo themselfs for the 6C3000CM cars. And they did so intentionally!

The racing department, the team that won two consecutive World Championships for driver and constructor, was responsable for building a new sportscar, the Disco Volante. As we know now the project was a failiure due to security reasons. It is just human that noone wanted to admit that failiure!
So they built the 6C3000CM series in a hurry in order to be present on the race tracks in 1953, what was already expected in 1952.
The Disco Volante principal was abandonned and a conventional frame was used, just to be on the conservative side.
In those days noone cared about the name Disco Volante for the 6C3000CM, although it was just an euphemism by the factory!

Looking at the cars from a historian point of view, we should indeed use the correct terms

Quote:

An eighth question: Why should we care so much about these few cars that none of us are likely to own?

[iicarJohn]

Thank you Carlo and Odin for your news.

Carlo, I agree with all that you have said and surmised. Are you absolutely sure that the 3000cc engine in 00011 came from the 3000cc MM coupe? I'm not doubting you but what is the proof?

Stu, Thanks to you as well, but there is a lot of garbage on that old thread that you supplied the link to. I can see no useful purpose in making others wade through all the errors of incorrect assumption to get to an updated discussion. I have to say that the most disturbing recurring error is your insistence on reverting to 8C2900 chassis number identities for the 412 cars that are known. As has been pointed out a number of times, this was a guess made by Simon Moore in the 1980's in an effort to explain why there might have been a gap in the 8C2900 chassis numbers that were issued and used. He mentioned the possibility that the chassis themselves (not the numbers) might have been used under a couple of 412 cars but he did not mean to imply that one car was one number or the other the other or that there was any indication that any of it was even some kind of "fact". This is a good example of why it is "dangerous" sometimes to wonder out loud. Have you considered the possibility that some of the "308" GP cars may have been built on reinforced/stiffened 8C2900 chassis? I'm not saying they were, but the possibility should be considered. They carry "Tipo C" ID plates and Tipo C may indeed have been the chassis source for at least some cars? But maybe not all? Three "308" raced simultaneously in 1939 and there were four existing by 1947. This ties in to Fusi's production number on those cars. Again, perhaps not all "308" chassis were the same? We know that one "308-3800" assembled for use and sale in South America was something of an anomaly. It would be silly to assume that it was the only anomaly.

To be continued ...

John de Boer
The Italian Car Registry

[dretceterini]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iicarJohn Thank you Carlo and Odin for your news. Carlo, I agree with all that you have said and surmised. Are you absolutely sure that the 3000cc engine in 00011 came from the 3000cc MM coupe? I'm not doubting you but what is the proof? Stu, Thanks to you as well, but there is a lot of garbage on that old thread that you supplied the link to. I can see no useful purpose in making others wade through all the errors of incorrect assumption to get to an updated discussion. I have to say that the most disturbing recurring error is your insistence on reverting to 8C2900 chassis number identities for the 412 cars that are known. As has been pointed out a number of times, this was a guess made by Simon Moore in the 1980's in an effort to explain why there might have been a gap in the 8C2900 chassis numbers that were issued and used. He mentioned the possibility that the chassis themselves (not the numbers) might have been used under a couple of 412 cars but he did not mean to imply that one car was one number or the other the other or that there was any indication that any of it was even some kind of "fact". This is a good example of why it is "dangerous" sometimes to wonder out loud. Have you considered the possibility that some of the "308" GP cars may have been built on reinforced/stiffened 8C2900 chassis? I'm not saying they were, but the possibility should be considered. They carry "Tipo C" ID plates and Tipo C may indeed have been the chassis source for at least some cars? But maybe not all? Three "308" raced simultaneously in 1939 and there were four existing by 1947. This ties in to Fusi's production number on those cars. Again, perhaps not all "308" chassis were the same? We know that one "308-3800" assembled for use and sale in South America was something of an anomaly. It would be silly to assume that it was the only anomaly. To be continued ... John de Boer The Italian Car Registry

[carlo]

Quote:

Are you absolutely sure that the 3000cc engine in 00011 came from the 3000cc MM coupe? I'm not doubting you but what is the proof?

[iicarJohn]

Research for this subject has led me on a merry chase through my files in order to try to become more precise about certain details. I've found too many inconsistencies to be too certain about much at all at this point! Some inconsistencies are relatively minor, such as, "Which day was a certain event held?". There are some more intense issues such as, "Why can't I find the photos that I know I've taken of 00126?" and some more serious things as well.

It seems clear to me that we simply don't have enough information. It is as simple as that. This makes it very tempting to enter the 'could-be' realm where we consider various possibilities and try to determine from various perspectives what seems to be most likely. Most likely! That's all. It is sometimes tempting to promote "most likely" as being somehow supported, at least eventually, by the lack of evidence against the premise. But, all the possiblities need time and effort, sometimes patience, to research further with the eventual goal of learning both "what was" and "what is".

Since this thread strayed away from the original premise of asking about a "black list" concerning replicas in Arese and has become a discussion of 3000CM and related ... seemingly having strayed from a thread about the Tipo B "aerodinamico"?

Oh, and I don't have a "black list" for any marque or collection or individual. I have collected lists, with lots of help, that seek to describe each car individually as to origin, history and technical description. These lists are all woefully inadequate to be used as anything that could be termed "black list" and I further think that it is necessary to place "intent" into the context of any car that was created or simply modified outside the umbrella of "original production".

It seems time to recap what we know even though it will go over some dialogue that has already been covered and may be boring to some. But ...

What do we know?

A block of six 3000CM cars, numbered 00121 to 00126 was registered early April 1953 by Alfa Romeo in Milano. What does that mean? Theoretically, this means that six cars were actually near completion at that time and were presumably inspected at some point by a representative for the Italian motoring authorities, a fee paid ... probably per car(?), and Alfa Romeo was given clearance to issue Certificates of Origin for those chassis numbers. Only then could those cars have been registered and sold or used under normal circumstances. The reality may have been a bit different but we should not assume so.

Three cars were entered for the Mille Miglia late in April and performed well. Only one finished, driven heroically by Fangio to second place after sustaining some damages to the suspension and steering. This car carried the Milano plate that was issued to "00124". The other two cars carried Milano plates that were issued to "00123" and "00125". Although we shouldn't presume that plates were mixed around at this early stage in the cars' lives, it is possible.

Another car, 00122, was re-registered a short time later and issued new plates, still in Milano. Why? It may be that something had happened to the car to destroy the original plates or it may be that the plates were lost. Are there other possibilities? Probably. But, if it is not a simple case of lost plates, then ... if something happened to the plates, then something may have happened to the car numbered 00122?

An additional chassis number (00127) was registered in August of 1953. Could it have been an earlier chassis re-numbered? Yes. Was it? I don't know. Can we figure it out? Maybe. Are there other confusions? Probably.

One confusion was the use of the license plate issued for 00124 on 00128, at least later in the USA. Does that mean the chassis number was changed from 00124 to 00128? Not necessarily. But it may be responsible for some incorrect assumptions?

Henry Wessels has promoted the idea that his Boano "Peron" car, "00126" was the car that Fangio drove at LeMans 1953. I consider Henry a friend and I've always admired him as a great enthusiast and have learned a lot from him. However, Alfa Romeo seemed unconvinced a few years ago. All by itself, this says nothing about the claim or possibility. I can't say I've seen any proof, one way or another. If Le Mans entry records state "00126" as I think I've heard, then that is probably "best evidence" at this point but may also not tell the whole story?

A reminder may be in order. When your focus is on getting a racing car to an event and setting the stage for a hoped-for victory, the least of your concerns is that the car that goes actually has some history bearing the declared chassis number in all documents. It is only important that customs and race officials allow the car to get to the start grid! And the drivers have to show and perform and nothing needs to go wrong ... and the other cars and drivers have to finish behind!

Similarly ...

A bit of a distraction is that it seems clear to me that some people at Alfa Romeo have felt a bit of embarassment about some of the things that Fusi and others did under the Alfa Romeo banner in later years in order to stock their museum with a representative sampling of their production as well as some significant race cars. Some things were done with some "creative" things in mind at the time that are probably looked at a bit differently today in retrospect, not only by historians and students but by management that seeks to establish and maintain some sense of "purity" in their lineage. It is a great example illustrating how things have changed as well as how a "museum mentality" sometimes does not always promote the study of true history. This topic probably should have its own thread. In any case, sometimes a museum mentality can confuse more than clarify. So, not only is there likely to be quite a lot of information that simply does not exist any longer at Alfa Romeo, but there may be some reluctance to share some of what they might be able to dig up in certain cases out of some fear(?) that some of it might run contrary to the currently known or declared history. However, as "gtv2000" mentioned, there have been some acknowledgements in the Alfa Romeo Museum in recent years as to the non-originality of certain representations. There may be others of which they are completely unaware?

I have come to this thread late, but I have to say that another distraction has been this thread as it currently exists late in 2007. I realize that some images are missing, and some of them may be critical. Those from Boudewijn for example. But, at this point, other than some welcome new images and information from Tomas Karlsson, I don't really see much "new" here. And there are some serious errors as well! Unfortunately, some of the "new", as I understand it, may have been lost in a server crash? Hopefully, someone has preserved it all.

At this point, I'm afraid I am mostly able to rehash mostly the old as well. More "old" will follow. Maybe some new as well?

John de Boer
The Italian Car Registry

[tubut]

I too wish the missing pictures would be replaced. This can be done and is relatively easy for those who have posted them.

In essence, one of the problems of the server crash recovery was that the cross-reference between the file names posted and their location on the server was corrupted. The file name still exists in the database but the server finds nothing to deliver from the hard disk.

Posters can re-upload the pictures by following these easy steps: Click on the "Edit" button of your posts, then click on the "Go Advanced" button and then the "Manage Attachments" button. The dialog box that opens will show the file name(s) of the picture(s) that were attached. Delete these files (taking note of their names), then locate them again on your computer and upload them again to the server. This procedure will re-instate the pictures that were lost.

As for the thread consisting mostly of "old" or already known information, I must admit as a relatively new member of the Alfa community, I found the thread most exciting as it exposed me to a type of car and a part of Alfa history I did not know about -- and, up to the point of reading the thread, didn't even know I had an interest in. So, I didn't mind at all what may look to others as "old" tales, as they were news to me.