6C3000 CM - Page 16 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums

  #226 (permalink)  
Old 12-11-2005, 11:16 AM
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On the se pictures of Boudewijn we can se that the front air intake is closed or partly closed. To me it indicates that the cooling efficiency had been sufficient in relating to cool the engine, so it cant be related to engine cooling that Bonnier had to change the front air intake.
"Carini-Sanesi at Le Mans 1953 with #00123", and "Some more pics of #00123". The scudetto is closed for air or semi closed.
On the car "Some more pics of #00125" the right side air intake is semi closed.
If we look at the picture "Bonnier at the Bari GP 1956" the front side intake seems to have been reduced, also seen on Boudewijns Red picture from 27/11, on these pictures the air intake seems to be smaller than on Fangios spider at Merano, and smaller than they where in later edition on the front of Bonniers spider.
So cooling problems must have been related to the cooling of the brakes,
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  #227 (permalink)  
Old 12-11-2005, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2000 touring sp
So cooling problems must have been related to the cooling of the brakes,
The coupé had small holes beside the rad intake. I suppose they were for the brakes. Interestingly the Zagato body were without these holes.
I haven't found much about how the car worked, apart from it's road-holding and that it was excellent on ice. But it seems to have had problems with the brakes on some tracks.
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  #228 (permalink)  
Old 12-12-2005, 08:44 AM
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On the early photos of the 6c3000CM Zagtao spider, there are small turn signals to the side and below the grille. They were later moved into the corners of the grille are, and the place where they were became a hole in the coachwork. Perhaps there was some sort of brake cooling problem, and this was an attempt to cure it.

On the coupes, there seems to have been some sort of oil radiator added at LeMans and possably earlier, covered by mesh, and located below the center of the nose. This might also indicate there was an engine cooling problem

Last edited by dretceterini; 12-12-2005 at 08:47 AM.
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  #229 (permalink)  
Old 12-12-2005, 12:31 PM
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On Boudewijns picture from the 18/11 we se the ,I expect, late version of Bonniers Zagato, with the turn signals lamps in cite air intake and the hole from the turn signals lamps open.
I expect that the lover front air intake, must be for the oil cooler, can you confirm Carter.
Regarding the info from the book about Carlo Chitti, testing disc brakes before the Merano.
I inquired by the ARCHIVIO STORICO ALFA ROMEO to whether the one they have is with disc brakes, or they had any additional info.
This is the answer
Dear Mister Aunsbjørn,
with reference to your request we are informing you that the 3000 CM COLLI
(not Zagato) in our Museum has not disc brakes e we think is not the one of
Carlo Chiti's tests and we have no documentation about the car lent by Jo
Bonnier and the 3000 CM gave to President Peron and also for the others two
coupes.

Sorry but concerning this period the document are very few.

I recommended that thy by Storico, followed this tremendous tread,so they can use this possibility to update there files.
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  #230 (permalink)  
Old 12-13-2005, 09:42 AM
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My understanding is that cooling problems may be less simple than it seems. There are several parameters including compression ratio, type of fuel and race conditions that affect cooling in a huge way.

A car is usually designed with an intake area suiting the expected neeed for cooling, but of course, in those times, it was an empirical guess rather than a precise calculation.

Two examples to make my point: the 1951 159s, at the apex of their output generally featured the upper part of the grille closed. This is because the use of methanol as fuel dramatically lowered the combustion temperatures, hence the need for cooling. It was a key feature for that generation of supercharged cars, but if the official 6C3000CMs evidenced cooling problems, a way around could be to mix methanol and suit carburation to the mixture. As the 6C intakes are really small, I wouldn't be surprised they used some methanol in the fuel - My guess, not an information.

The weather and engine evolution: the first TZ2 in 1965 ran the Le Mans test with its single nose intake partially covered. Now watch the 1966 Targa Florio cars and count the extra openings in the bonnet...

Aerodynamics also count. At the time, they didn't account enough for "ground effect". In this case, I mean that there is a higher air pressure on the bottom of the nose. When you open intakes in the central area of the nose, you don't always get the full stream you had been expecting.

Fact is that the Colli coupés mostly featured partially closed intakes. Partially because, for instance, the far right part of the right intake is for engine breathing. It would have been, er, not too smart to close that one...

As dr. wrote, the lower squared bulge with mesh looks like an oil cooling arrangement.

But indeed, the Colli coupés had separate intakes for brake cooling (in the bottom, a good place for efficiency), where the Zagato spider probably expected the main intake to be large enough for water and oil radiators, air ducts for the brakes, and airduct to the engine. Maybe a bit optimistic, indeed.

OTOH, I'm afraid the archive don't update their files with external info or research. I once evidenced a set of picture were miscaptioned, and guess what happened... Nothing.

OTOH2: The book on Chiti is not among the most acurate, IMHO.
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  #231 (permalink)  
Old 12-13-2005, 12:30 PM
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The info about Carlo Chiti, is a reprint from Auto Italia nr 34 12 sept.1953 page 35, for those that has the library completed. reprinted with reff in the book.
The air intake. Yes the part of the right side that is not closed is naturally for intake, but it shoves for me that it was not necessary to use the full potentially for cooling the engine, regardless what fuel they used.
I don't have expectations that the archive will take any notion, regardless what historical fact that is shown in this tread.
But the answer, give me the impression that nobody hasn't bother to look, they has just waited more than a month to give the impression that it has been worked trough. so the remark was only a way to tray to tees them.
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  #232 (permalink)  
Old 12-15-2005, 08:55 PM
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Why not look at photos

Quote:
Originally Posted by dretceterini
Tom Zat has claimed for years to have a real C-52 Disco body with giulietta mechanicals under it that was fished out of a swamp (or at least that's the story I've heard for 20+ years). I haven't seen the car in person, but I have seen photos, and the coachwork looks pretty authentic. Has anyone seen the car in person, and knows it's REAL history?
Dear Doctor. Tom Zat bought that car from a fellow who had worked for the Ford Motor plant on the Detroit river. Seems when the Disco Volante problem of aerodynamics showed up (and some famous engineer left Alfa) the remaining several bodies were sent to Detroit to be checked out. Detroit was very interested in the Italian look at the time. The fellow from whom Tom bought bought the car said that when the company was finished checking things out he had been instructed to push all the cars into the river as just so much junk, but kept one. When he retired he took it to Missouri with him and it sat in his yard a long time. He finally adverties it in Hemmings (I saw the ad myself and called too). I realized the guy had no clue what he had since he was advetising it as a Disco Yolante or Volari (wierd spelling but close enough to interest an Alfanut). So I called. And the guy told me a fellow named Tom Zat had drived down to where he was in Missouri from Minnesota with a big car carrier loaded with old wrecked Alfa cars, and that he had bought it on the spot and paid cash (forget how much).

And I could not help noticing that in the photos of the shop where they were making Disco Volantes in this thread that there were certainly a lot more bodies there that what you absolutely know everthing fellows have listed so masterfully. Tom does know cars and he believes that car to be one of those that the factory had in process (we have discussed, for example, how the floor pan in the motor compartment was suited for a 1900 engine, but that the one installed leaked in such a way that oil ran into the passenger compartment). I suspect some of those bodies were peremptorily ashcanned. Maybe it is time to ask Mr. Tom (or if he no long car, then his wife, Dale) to send us some photos. She is the one who runs his webside, and she could probably some detailed phots for the BB.

Who knows? We might have a rare bit of untold Alfa history we can reveal and get the Bulletin Board blasted again by those bodacious bullies from Alfa who threaten to sue everybody and his dog.
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  #233 (permalink)  
Old 12-15-2005, 09:00 PM
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Post script

By the way, I was with H Wessels Esq at Monterey Historics to look specifically at both his old cars which were there at the same time. The spyder was on the lawn at Pebble Beach also. Most interesting to me on each, frankly, were the six single side draft Weber carburetors on the six cylinder engines. I had never seen ones like that, only the dual carburetors such as DCOE versions. Dr. Wessels should also somewhere be entitled to put some input into this thread. After all, he had a couple. He might really have some first hand knowledge rather than what we can get from books and reports.
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  #234 (permalink)  
Old 12-16-2005, 09:04 AM
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This is the car that links the C52 series with the 6C 3000, the Disco Volante #1361.00011. It has the 6C 3000 engine whilst being a Disco Volante like the C52 series. It is exhibited at the Museo Biscaretti di Ruffio in Torino. Originally 2 cars were built this way, but #1361.00012 was dismantled by the factory.
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  #235 (permalink)  
Old 12-16-2005, 10:06 AM
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I confess that the story of a Disco going to Detroit leaves me, er, dubious. But I was not there nor did see the car or remains of. Why the hell sending such a car to Detroit (the body shape was patented, btw), and then throw them into the river or crush them in any mode??? What does Santa Claus matter here? And not only one car, but "the remaining several bodies"? If "push into the river" is an image, it's just improbable. If it's coined as an authentic story, my mind is made.

Ok, we can have long been unaware of episodes of the Alfa history, but I hardly imagine that, if Discos were shipped to the US, it would have been unremarked by the period press as a minimum.

If there was any aerodynamic test to be carried out, that was possible in Italy or elsewhere in Europe, albeit aeronautical wind tunnels were, at the time, not able to reproduce the ground effect, which is relevant for the Disco aerodinamical troubles.

Instead, I'm aware of a poorly crafted Disco replica in the US. I assume that twoliterlover doesn't refer to that car. If he does, it's time to get lenses! But the detail quoted of the floor pan, assuming the competence of who inspected the car, should support it's more than a replica. Unless the replica was originally made around 1900 gear and engine, and the point is explained.

From the pictures I have of that car (unfortunately I don't find them on my computer right now - they are probably on a CD I have not at hand here), there's no way Touring could ever have crafted such an example, that lacks all the finesse of the genuine design, including a much too flat nose.

The matter has been discussed, as I found, in an early thread on this BB. I read there that the topic divides Alfa experts. After all, the "intelligence comunity" was divided as well a couple of years ago...

However, referring to Touring and Alfa sources, the only missing car is, as Boudewijn just wrote, the 3-liter #1361.00012 , and this would anyway not fit with 1900-shaped body parts. But yet, that VIN for sure is recorded in Alfa's files, thus assumed to have existed, and no one is able now to tell where it went. I agree with Boudewijn that the most probable case is that it was scrapped at the factory, but there's no hard evidence of this.

Unless one confuses cars that have been patiently described as NON-Discos above in this thread, I fail to have ever counted on a picture more Discos than the official produced number.

Of course, any kind of documentation on that "Zat" Disco is welcome as to let everyone make his own mind on the matter.

But questioning the authenticity of the 13th car out of 12 may trigger lawsuits, I reckon, and it's not my intention...
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  #236 (permalink)  
Old 12-16-2005, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twoliterlover
: Most interesting to me on each, frankly, were the six single side draft Weber carburetors on the six cylinder engines. I had never seen ones like that, only the dual carburetors such as DCOE versions.
The carbs are the easy one: all of the 6C3000CM engines have the single throttle sidedraft Webers. Or at least all the big ones: the original 6C3000 3.0 C50 motor had the old 39DCO3 Webers. Those wouldn't work at the increased power levels of the retuned 3.5 litre engines-- the 3.5 motors use, I think, 50's. They're neat carbs, and alot different from the single throat side drafts on the old 6C2500's.

New and period photos all show the 6 carbs: Look at the 6 throttle rods in the photo at post 81. "Fusi" is in agreement, too: Look at the photo and the description ["6 carburatori orrizontali sempli. corpo"] pp 488/9.

The stories of these wonderful cars are so interesting, and I wish we didn't have to waste our time with old fakes or new replicas.

I think that I still have some photos I took of the Zat car. The photos are clear: the Zat car is plainly false. I wrote here about that car: "I have seen that car, and it looks like someone saw one small photo of a Disco Volante in a magazine and decided that he would make his own version of the car at home in his basement from plywood." I wasn't trying to be cute. I think something like that is exactly what happened. The car is the wrong shape. Touring never built such a crude and ugly car. The true Disco Volante shape was wrong, dynamically, but it was captivating.

The builder of the Zat fake had no understanding of the real Disco Volante. The real cars have a pronounced taper in the width of the body from the front to the rear. The cars are all curves and soft edges. The Zat Fake has a straight pointed tail, and flat forms.

There are a couple fake cars floating around. Look at the awful car at post # 63. The Zat car is far worse. Please give me time to find the photos. The goofy story makes no sense to me. But the photos can speak for themselves.

--Carter
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  #237 (permalink)  
Old 12-16-2005, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtv2000
...the 1951 159s, at the apex of their output generally featured the upper part of the grille closed. This is because the use of methanol as fuel dramatically lowered the combustion temperatures, hence the need for cooling. It was a key feature for that generation of supercharged cars, but if the official 6C3000CMs evidenced cooling problems, a way around could be to mix methanol and suit carburation to the mixture. As the 6C intakes are really small, I wouldn't be surprised they used some methanol in the fuel - My guess, not an information.
Remember that Le Mans required use of its local provided gasoline and that Fangio retired in the 3rd hour with piston failure, probably fuel related [a typical problem at Le Mans]. There is no reason to think that the cars were run on alcohol elsewhere. In fact the cars tended to run too cool, except for the serious problems with heat buildup in the rear. The brakes required careful and difficult adjustment. The coupes are, I am told, very stable at very high speed...

--Carter
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  #238 (permalink)  
Old 12-16-2005, 01:31 PM
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Tom Zat's Disco Volante

Carter: I just talked to Tom Zat and requested his set of photos. As for the comments about how many disco volante spyders made, take a look at post no 36 in this series. It shows the cars as they are sitting being made in the factory, probably nearing final assembly. There seem to be more than just to spyders. And did Dr. Etceterini ever explain the Joe or John Black mess of Alfa? Wasn't he in charge of the "skunkworks" part of Alfa and stationed in Detroit? I never have believed Tom Zat such a fool that he did not know what the car was that he bought. It has a 1900 rear end. It was supposed to be fitted with a 1900 engine, but has a Giulietta engine (a four banger of some aluminum block type) and the belly pan bottom had a cut out to fit the oil pan on the bottom of a 1900. Oil dripping out of the other engine runs into the engine compartment.

Tom also had his car at the museum of science and industry for a year (they paid the insurance and the moving costs) with the Alfa factory people looking at it and they wanted to buy his car. It was NOT for sale, is NOT for sale, so he does not care what the rest of us think. However, I believe I have convinced him that he owes it to the rest of us old alfa guys (seems he is disenchanted with the younger members and has no longer any connections with the club.) Whatever we might say, we must acknowledge that he for many years had the largest collection and the most hands on experience of anyone in the US.

I might add that he was laughed at for a long time when he said he had the prototype of the giulietta and only after a long time did it get acknowledged as authentic. Now it shows up all the time at important events -- even at Pebble Beach. So, give him some credit. And the funniest thing about stories on these cars is that the truth is usually very strange. For example, you did realize that I found Simon Moore's 8c2900A in a blackberry patch here in Washington. How believeable is that?

So, I am now contacting Dr. Henry Wessels and seeing what he might want to add on this thread. When Tom Zat sends me his photos (the car is in the garage under wraps in the middle of winter right now) I will get them onto the bulletin board so we can all comment with our expert knowledge. He has lots of them, but he will scan them and send them.

If Alfa can actually have a Brera Spyder but deny its existence and show some 8 cylinder car on the putting green and hide the other, then it is not improbable that we do not know what really went on when suddenly they discovered the disco volante with the nice curving hoods etc had the tendency to lift off the ground unexpectedly. Touring was doing the bodies, but there was some rumor that only four engines were originally supplied. And in that post # 36 I see more cars than the few we are supposed to limit ourselves to.

Dear Doctor Etceterini, who was the guy you said Alfa had treated poorly. Did he run the Alfa "skunkworks" in Detroit.
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  #239 (permalink)  
Old 12-16-2005, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twoliterlover
As for the comments about how many disco volante spyders made, take a look at post no 36 in this series. It shows the cars as they are sitting being made in the factory, probably nearing final assembly. There seem to be more than just to spyders.
No.

1st photo [early 1953?]:

2 Disco Volante spiders
2 Colli coupe "discos"

2nd photo:

2 Disco Volante spiders
1 Fianchi Stretti ["narrow sides"]

list of cars:

1359 00001 Spider Disco Volante
1359 00002 Fianchi Stretti
1359 00003 Coupe Disco Volante
1361 00011 Spider Disco Volante 3.0
1361 00012 Spider Disco Volante 3.0 destroyed

This is all way before Don Black's time.

I'm off to pick up Anna.

--Carter
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  #240 (permalink)  
Old 12-16-2005, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twoliterlover
Carter: I just talked to Tom Zat and requested his set of photos. As for the comments about how many disco volante spyders made, take a look at post no 36 in this series. It shows the cars as they are sitting being made in the factory, probably nearing final assembly. There seem to be more than just to spyders. And did Dr. Etceterini ever explain the Joe or John Black mess of Alfa? Wasn't he in charge of the "skunkworks" part of Alfa and stationed in Detroit? I never have believed Tom Zat such a fool that he did not know what the car was that he bought. It has a 1900 rear end. It was supposed to be fitted with a 1900 engine, but has a Giulietta engine (a four banger of some aluminum block type) and the belly pan bottom had a cut out to fit the oil pan on the bottom of a 1900. Oil dripping out of the other engine runs into the engine compartment.

Tom also had his car at the museum of science and industry for a year (they paid the insurance and the moving costs) with the Alfa factory people looking at it and they wanted to buy his car. It was NOT for sale, is NOT for sale, so he does not care what the rest of us think. However, I believe I have convinced him that he owes it to the rest of us old alfa guys (seems he is disenchanted with the younger members and has no longer any connections with the club.) Whatever we might say, we must acknowledge that he for many years had the largest collection and the most hands on experience of anyone in the US.

I might add that he was laughed at for a long time when he said he had the prototype of the giulietta and only after a long time did it get acknowledged as authentic. Now it shows up all the time at important events -- even at Pebble Beach. So, give him some credit. And the funniest thing about stories on these cars is that the truth is usually very strange. For example, you did realize that I found Simon Moore's 8c2900A in a blackberry patch here in Washington. How believeable is that?

So, I am now contacting Dr. Henry Wessels and seeing what he might want to add on this thread. When Tom Zat sends me his photos (the car is in the garage under wraps in the middle of winter right now) I will get them onto the bulletin board so we can all comment with our expert knowledge. He has lots of them, but he will scan them and send them.

If Alfa can actually have a Brera Spyder but deny its existence and show some 8 cylinder car on the putting green and hide the other, then it is not improbable that we do not know what really went on when suddenly they discovered the disco volante with the nice curving hoods etc had the tendency to lift off the ground unexpectedly. Touring was doing the bodies, but there was some rumor that only four engines were originally supplied. And in that post # 36 I see more cars than the few we are supposed to limit ourselves to.

Dear Doctor Etceterini, who was the guy you said Alfa had treated poorly. Did he run the Alfa "skunkworks" in Detroit.

I don't know if it was Alfa or FIAT that actually screwed over Don Black, nor do I know if he ran a "skunkworks"...but he was in charge of the racing program at least here in the US for many years.

I have known Tom Zat for many years; not as long as Jay, but for a LONG time. I have never had any kind of problem with him, although some within the Alfa community seem to....As to Tom's "Disco", I have heard about Heinz 57 stories about it, so I don't know what is actually true or not..
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