Vittorio Jano and Mussolini photograph - Page 3 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums

  #31 (permalink)  
Old 03-12-2011, 07:15 PM
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Jano or Ciano or G_____iano or ______iano? Or ... ??

Although it is disappointing to think that there is probably not much that is Alfa Romeo-related that is hidden in the signatures in the photograph, it seems to me that the Mussolini connection is enough to make this a topic of interest. One can never anticpate all the paths we must take in order to know more about our primary study areas!

I do fear, however, that a focused search for "Ciano" will perhaps lead you away from a more plausible explanation of who it was that signed the photograph either in the company of ... or in addition to Mussolini.

From the start, I've felt that I've seen the photo previously in some other context. So, I think that posting it on a few appropriate threads elsewhere (perhaps in Italy?) might give you some additional context about the Mussolini-centric aspect. You may get lucky and have someone respond about the as-yet-unidentified signator who appears as well?

As a bit of caution I have to remind you that, as soon as you begin to make even one assumption based on observations that may be flawed, you begin to distance yourself from considering all of the possibilities. This will diminish your chances of having a meaningful success but will not make your quest impossible. But, eventually it may become necessary to "open your eyes" once again in order to see what you've been missing?

John

Last edited by iicarJohn; 03-13-2011 at 03:42 AM.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 03-13-2011, 10:01 AM
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I'm sure that sign isn't the Ciano's sign: see this official document on the second line.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 03-13-2011, 11:18 AM
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Update on Mussolini photo

I've seen that signature, however the one I originally compared to the one on the photo was taken from the cover of his diary. The handwriting in his diary can be found here:

http://casarrubea.files.wordpress.co...ciano-1940.jpg

I've made a quick comparison of the 'ano' from the photo and two lines of text from the diary below.

I have not had much time to work on this project, so this will have to do for the moment. Proper historical research cannot all be done by email and Google unfortunately. I'm now reasonably certain that it is Ciano's signature, but only a handwriting expert can confirm that.

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...eat=directlink

Thanks to Ruedi and John and others for leading me in the right direction on this.

Regards,

Jim
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 03-13-2011, 11:30 AM
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I'm not an expert, but i remember my forensic studies: the handwriting and the sign are always different.
The G overwrote is different and the final O too.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 03-13-2011, 12:03 PM
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Thanks,

I'm closing this thread. You could be right, but I don't have more time for this right now.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 03-13-2011, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PG1964 View Post
I'm sure that sign isn't the Ciano's sign: see this official document on the second line.

I agree. The above shown signatures are from the 1941 extension that added Bulagaria to the Tripartite Pact between Germany, Italy and Japan. When I first saw this document a few days ago, I could not find any conclusive information about who signed it (i.e. whether the extension was signed by Ciano or somebody else).

However, Internet sources were fairly clear that Ciano signed the original Tripartite Pact in 1940 (but there is also some conflicting information on the Internet). So I started looking for the pictures of the original pact. Some digging produced a picture of the japanese copy of the original pact with the original signatures:

Name:  Tripartite_Pact_27_September_1940 (700 wide).jpg
Views: 1415
Size:  233.0 KB

Here is the signature from the rotated and cropped original hi-resolution picture (see here):

Name:  Tripartite_Pact_27_September_1940 (Ciano signature rotated + cropped).jpg
Views: 1473
Size:  135.6 KB

Furthermore, I found some videos that show Ciano signing the pact:



See also this version (about 1:33 into the news report).

From the video evidence, we can tell how the pen stroke in Ciano's signature flows (finishing the signature by putting the dot on the "i"). I have no doubts that Ciano also signed the extension including Bulgaria. These two Ciano signatures give me the impression that the signature on the Mussolini picture is probably not Ciano's -- unless he changed his signature substantially between 1936 and 1940-41.
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Old 03-13-2011, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by kjsorenson View Post
I've seen that signature, however the one I originally compared to the one on the photo was taken from the cover of his diary. The handwriting in his diary can be found here:

http://casarrubea.files.wordpress.co...ciano-1940.jpg
If the days and dates in the diary are correct, these two pages must be from 1940.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 03-13-2011, 02:28 PM
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Thanks Ruedi,

Amazing that you found the movie of the signing. I guess I'll have to send a copy off to Italy and get an opinion. The father of a friend of mine living in England was head of the Italian Olympic Committee in the 60s. Perhaps he can point me forward. The signature and his handwriting are both inclined to the vertical which was unusual for those days. I still believe it's his signature, but we will see. Thanks for the research and the movie. You've been very kind and very helpful.

Jim
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