10-05-2005, 10:00 AM
|
|
Registered User
|
|
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 77
|
|
|
Alfa Romeo Pescara #700635
This is the same car which raced the Mille with Mussolini's driver at the wheel.
Any more history on the car would be welcome!@
Enjoy.
|
|
Sponsored Links
|
Advertisement
| |
|
10-06-2005, 09:37 AM
|
 |
Registered User
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Aken, Germany
Posts: 270
|
|
 Quote:
|
This is the same car which raced the Mille with Mussolini's driver at the wheel.
|
Quote:
|
Any more history on the car would be welcome.
|
Concerning Mussolini's personal driver, you surely mean Ercole Borrato.
(I saw different ways of spelling the name, so no guarantee  )
In 1939 he won the Tobruk -Tripoli race, together with Consalvo Sanesi.
Their car was a 6C2500 SS Spider Ala Spessa, body by Touring.
The race was called the "African 1000 Miglia", because in 1939 racing was forbidden in Italy, so the 1000 miles race was held in Libya. Libya was under Italian control these days.
Propably Borrato started in other MM races as well, I'll check later....
The history of the car on your photos may be interesting indeed...
Somehow I cannot imagine that the car raced with the current coachwork 
Best regards
Ciao Carlo 
|
10-06-2005, 11:24 AM
|
 |
Banned
|
|
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow
Posts: 6,148
|
|
|
Carlo:
That is the original coachwork!
The early 6c2300s (the first of these came out in 1933) had single downdarft carbs. The Pescara model is named such because of the success of the 2 carb version at the Pescara sports car races. Later, the 2 carb version was called the Mille Miglia. The early versions had solid rear axles, and the later 6c2300B which came out in 1935 versions had rear swing axles. In 1938, the 6c2500 came out.
Borrato was actually a fairly successful sports car racer in the 1930s.
|
03-20-2007, 07:54 PM
|
|
Registered User
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 6
|
|
|
I have a 1937 6C2300B engine and transmission and would love to know what the coachwork was on the car and on which wheelbase. Engine S/N P 823827 I think the P is Pescara. Any comments would be welcome.
Last edited by Kim Loyd; 03-20-2007 at 07:56 PM.
|
03-20-2007, 08:27 PM
|
|
Banned
|
|
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow
Posts: 6,148
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kim Loyd
I have a 1937 6C2300B engine and transmission and would love to know what the coachwork was on the car and on which wheelbase. Engine S/N P 823827 I think the P is Pescara. Any comments would be welcome.
|
No such thing as a 6c2300B Pescara. The Pescara was the 2 carb version of the earlier 6c2300 with solid rear axle. The 2 carb version of the 6c2300B is the Mille Miglia.
|
03-20-2007, 09:11 PM
|
|
Registered User
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 6
|
|
|
6C2300 engine
Can you tell from the S/N what engine I have? It looks a lot more like a 6C2500 than the 2300's I have seen. I have the three carb intake with 36 DO 2's Kim
|
03-21-2007, 07:46 AM
|
|
Banned
|
|
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow
Posts: 6,148
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kim Loyd
Can you tell from the S/N what engine I have? It looks a lot more like a 6C2500 than the 2300's I have seen. I have the three carb intake with 36 DO 2's Kim |
I am trying to track down the engine number to see what it came from. If it has the 3 carb manifold, it should be a 2500 and not a 2300....but it isn't that difficult to put a 3 carb manifold on a 2300 motor...
|
03-23-2007, 06:30 PM
|
 |
ex-"rogue Super Mod"
|
|
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 5,786
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by dretceterini
No such thing as a 6c2300B Pescara.
|
According to Fusi, engine S/N P 823827 does belong to a 1937 6c2300 B Pescara, and he listed this type of car for the 1934-37 time frame. Is Fusi wrong and 6c2300 B Pescara never existed?
Edit: Oooops, just saw this engine is now addressed in this thread.
__________________
Ruedi
'63 2600 Touring Spider (AR 191437, the car that started the 2000/2600 International Register, reassembly in progress)
ex-'65 2600 SZ (AR 856043, resto project)
Maintainer of a 2600 SZ register (not the Dutch one).
Last edited by tubut; 03-23-2007 at 06:37 PM.
|
03-23-2007, 09:58 PM
|
|
Banned
|
|
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow
Posts: 6,148
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by tubut
According to Fusi, engine S/N P 823827 does belong to a 1937 6c2300 B Pescara, and he listed this type of car for the 1934-37 time frame. Is Fusi wrong and 6c2300 B Pescara never existed?
Edit: Oooops, just saw this engine is now addressed in this thread. |
Although I am very interested in 6c2300s, 6c2300Bs, and 6c2500s, I am far from an technical expert. I have never owned one.
From the information I have, there is no difference between a 6c2300 and 6c2300B motor. The difference is that the 2300 had a solid rear axle and the 2300B had a swing axle rear end.
There are rumors that some of the motors used in the 6c2300B MMs were actually 2500cc, but I have no evidence.
As far as I am aware, no 6c2300 was built with a 3 carb manifold, but it is not that difficult to put the 6c2500 3 carb manifold on a 2300 engine. The increase in bore and the adaptation of the 3 carb manifold could have been done in the 40s or 50s by someone like Nardi.
The people that are the technical experts on 6c2300 and 6c2500s are: Fabio Calligaris and Gippo Salvetti
Their e-mails are: fabio.calligaris@6c2500.org
and enniosei@enniosei.it
The e-mail I have for Tito Anselmi, who wrote the 6c2500 book (there is, unfortunately, no book on 6c2300s) is: tito@edizionipificio.it
Raoul San Georgi also knows a great deal about these cars. He is the one that "recreated" the 1939 Le Mans car based on 6c2500 parts that sold for something like a half-million dollars recently. His e-mail is: sangiorgi@pandora.be
As to using the title Pescara or Mille Miglia for this 6c2300 motor number:
The 6c2300 with two carbs became known as the Pescara because it won that race.
The 6c2300B with two carbs is generally known as the Mille Miglia, because it won it's class in that race.
I'm not sure why Fusi calls both cars by the Pescara name. I believe the 6c2300B, with the swing axle rather than the solid axle was first built in 1936.
Some also say there is a Series 1 and a Series 2 6c2300B Mille Miglia, which makes the matter even more confusing.
Last edited by dretceterini; 03-24-2007 at 10:20 AM.
|
06-01-2009, 09:10 AM
|
|
Banned
|
|
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow
Posts: 6,148
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kim Loyd
I have a 1937 6C2300B engine and transmission and would love to know what the coachwork was on the car and on which wheelbase. Engine S/N P 823827 I think the P is Pescara. Any comments would be welcome.
|
Motor 823827 would have been original to chassis 823827, and the car would have been a 6c2300B Mille Miglia (although some books refer to the cars built in 1936 as 6c2300B Pescara and the cars built in 1937 as 6c2300B Mille Miglia....the cars are identical). Alfa does not have any records as to what coachwork was on any of the 6c2300A or 6c2300B cars, nor any records as to whom these cars was sold. Fusi is wrong in the fact that if you add up the number of cars he calls 6c2300B Pescara and 6c2300B Mille Miglia, there would be over 200. The actual total of both is 106 cars.
As said ealier, the cars known as 1939-1940 6c2500 Tipo 256 may have actually been bored out 6c2300Bs, with the 3 carb manifold added and different cams and compression ratio. 19 racing cars of this type were built, with various coachwork.
The pre-war 6c2500SS "street" cars may also have actually had bored out 6c2300B motors with the 3 carb manifold. Only 17 of these were built with various coachwork. Again, these cars may have had different compression ratios and cams than the 6c2300B Mille Miglias.
Last edited by dretceterini; 06-01-2009 at 09:17 AM.
|
06-02-2009, 05:05 AM
|
|
Registered User
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 6
|
|
|
dretceterini, Great to hear from you again. Thanks for the new information. Here is a picture of my exhaust manifold. Kim
|
06-02-2009, 12:40 PM
|
|
Banned
|
|
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow
Posts: 6,148
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kim Loyd
dretceterini, Great to hear from you again. Thanks for the new information. Here is a picture of my exhaust manifold. Kim
|
I hope you have a friendly machinist to rebuilt the carbs, as parts are impossible 
|
06-02-2009, 02:53 PM
|
 |
Registered User
|
|
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Bussum, The Netherlands
Posts: 1,388
|
|
|
6C2300 B Pescara
Quote:
Originally Posted by dretceterini
No such thing as a 6c2300B Pescara. The Pescara was the 2 carb version of the earlier 6c2300 with solid rear axle. The 2 carb version of the 6c2300B is the Mille Miglia.
|
Hello Docter,
Might I may some remarks? According to d’Amico and Tabucchi in their 2007 version of the ‘Alfa Romeo Production Cars 1910 -2007’ book concerning the 6C2300:
Quote; ‘The “Pescara” version of the 6C 2300 B was also updated with the new independent suspension chassis. As with the 1934 “Pescara”, the engine was fuelled via two single-choke horizontal carburettor rather than the single twin-choke vertical carburettor mounted on all the versions of the 6C 2300 B with the exception of the Mille Miglia berlinetta. Just four examples of the 2300 B ‘Pescara’ model were built in 1935, with a further five being produced in 1936. Minor variations only were made to the mechanical and coachwork specifications for 1937’.Unquote
Chassis and engine numbers:
1935 chassis 813801 – 813804 with engines 823801 – 823804, 1936 chassis 813805 – 813809 with engines 823805 – 823809, 1937 chassis 813810 – 813915 with engines 823810 – 823915.
According to d’Amico and Tabucchi the 6C2300 B Mille Miglia car was closely related to the ‘Pescara’ model of 1935. The Mille Miglia version had chassisnumber 815001 – 815101 with enginenumbers 823916 – 823968 and 824001 – 824051.
Ciao, Olaf
|
06-02-2009, 04:18 PM
|
|
Banned
|
|
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow
Posts: 6,148
|
|
|
If you look at Fusi or Tabucchi, and the 6c2300B 2 carb car serial numbers, it would appear that 214 6c2300Bs were made with the two carb manifold. Fusi contradicts this and says only 106 total 6c2300B 2 carb cars were built, and calls them all 6c2300B Mille Miglias!
813801-813804=4
813805-813809=5
813810-813915=105
815001-815101=100
------
214
The 6c2300Bs with the 2 carb manifold were first called Pescara (but as far as I am aware, not officially), then when they won their class in the 1937 MM, they were called Mille Miglia. I have never seen a 6c2300A (solid axle) or B (swing axle) with a chassis plate that says Pescara; only ones saying Gran Turismo (on the solid axle 2 carb cars) and Mille Miglia (on the 2 carb swing axle cars).
As to the 6c2300A (solid axle cars), again, their chassis plates all say Gran Turismo. NONE say Pescara. After their win in the 1934 Pescara sports car race, they were called Pescaras, but never officially. It should also be noted that the winning car in that race in 1934 was NOT from Scuderia Ferrari, but from Scuderia Ambrosiana, driven by Cortese.
As far as I can tell, Scuderia Ferrari never had any 6c2300As, 6c2300Bs or 6c2500s at all...
I personally believe that some of the 6c2300B Mille Miglias were renumbered and were bored out to 2500cc and had 3 carb manifolds, and were actually Tipos 256 6c2500s or pre-war 6c2500SSs (19 plus 17 cars respectively)
Last edited by dretceterini; 06-02-2009 at 04:25 PM.
|
01-12-2010, 02:53 PM
|
 |
Registered User
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: California
Posts: 1,100
|
|
|
I had hoped that ...
I had hoped that someone else would chime in here to correct some of the many errors that have been stated in this short thread. I cannot let it lie here completely ignored with obvious misstatements closing the thread. I've had some direct correspondence already about this with the owner but think it would be appropriate to share a short listing of similarly numbered engines to the subject 6C2300 engine "P823827".
It is probably important to recognize that the two-carburetor configuration was almost certainly in use before the Pescara race win made for the "Pescara" moniker that was given to the general configuration. So, there will be some two-carburetor engines that are probably "original" even if they are not acknowledged as "Pescara"?
First of all, it is clear that this engine ("P823827") was probably a "Pescara" engine when it was made. As I've indicated already in another thread or two, we should not assume that each and every "Pescara" engine was tuned the same. And, we should also not assume that it was only the twin-carburetor configuration that made an engine "Pescara" even if this is perhaps the most visible feature. In this case, the "Pescara" nature of the engine is indicated by the "P" prefix to the engine number ... if we accept that this is an original feature of the engine. I have no reason to doubt it but have not seen it myself to give an informed opinion on this point. But, there are other similar engines that are marked similarly.
The following chassis/engine combinations are known. Because some of this information comes from historical research that does not report the "Pescara" characteristic, this detail is not reported in a few cases. Although I am acknowledging those that are specifically known as "Pescara", it is not unlikely that more of these cars/engines were called "Pescara" when they were built. For instance, based on the names of the earliest owners of the first two cars listed, I can't help feeling that these were almost certainly not the "base" level of tuning available at the time.
Chassis Engine
813814 823815 (I would presume this to have been "Pescara")
813819 823808 (I would presume this to have been "Pescara")
813820 823821 Pescara
813821 823817 Pescara
813822 823813 Pescara
813___ P823827 Pescara (presumably)
813830 823840 Pescara
813834 823838 (Should we assume ...?)
813869 823875 Pescara
813___ P823876 Pescara (presumably)
(The nature of this BB listing does not seem to allow the formatting desirable to show this more clearly so I apologize for the compressed nature of this listing as it appears. The alternative is to list the information as an attachment.)
I suspect that more of these engines had the "P" prefix as well. Front suspension components were also marked "P" on occasion, probably reflecting different springing and perhaps damping. I am interested in smaller particulars in these markings as well. In some cases, the "P" is separated from the engine number by a space, sometimes by a "dot" ("period") or "punto", making for a number taking the form "P.823xxx"
The three-carb manifold currently with engine "P823827" is not original to the engine and the transmission with the engine is also not an original pairing to the engine. But, this kind of stuff lived real-world lives and rarely the fantasy "numbers-matching" existence that seems to be valued today in the concours and investment world. One day I hope it will become important to acknowledge component-swapping history rather than cover it up by pretending that only the oil was changed at regular intervals! Some interesting history can be learned on occasion by acknowledging reality.
John
|
| Thread Tools |
|
|
| Display Modes |
 Linear Mode
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
|
|
