04-08-2012, 08:24 AM
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your assumption that the argument has been neatly disposed of in favor of the 8C being a alfa in all ways is false.that is not by any means my opinion alone.
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04-08-2012, 09:58 AM
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This is really getting rediculous! Fiat took over Alfa a long time ago and we all wound up with front wheel drive and no rear wheel drive cars. Along comes a rear wheel drive and in my humble opinion good looking car that has great performance that is rear wheel drive and some individuals can only critize. Maybe this evolution will evolve into a good looking 2 seat spider of old that we can afford. This is the first step for Alfa to possibly go to the next step. Ford bought Jag a while back and improved the bred but it still was a Jag. If I could afford this Alfa I would buy it and be proud of it while smilling all the way down the highway!
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04-08-2012, 12:24 PM
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hey i'm not against the concept of keeping alfa going ,in whatever incarnation they take.i think the 4C is getting things in the right direction as well,tho i've yet to see one in the "flesh".
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04-08-2012, 05:10 PM
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 Quote:
Originally Posted by cowfy
just got a look at the new viper.quite impressive.now i suppose some one will go on to try and convince us the tz3 viper motored limited edition is an alfa also.
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I was offered the TZ3 and actually agreed to buy one. My only condition was that it had to be like the TZ3 Corsa, based on the 8C chasis and engine in order to be a true Alfa. Zagato couldn't satisfy this request and so I withdrew from the project. But I can guarantee that if they had used the 8C basis for the TZ3 Stradale, I would have got one, because it would have been a true Alfa!
Quote:
Originally Posted by cowfy
hey i'm not against the concept of keeping alfa going ,in whatever incarnation they take.i think the 4C is getting things in the right direction as well,tho i've yet to see one in the "flesh".
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I have seen that car in flesh and it looks great. However if they want to actually do that car it can't sell in any way under 100k... Second that car has yes an Alfa engine but gearbox and chasis are a mix of italian/german/dutch... Which for me is definitely not Alfa Romeo...
Quote:
Originally Posted by mineralsman575
This is really getting rediculous! Fiat took over Alfa a long time ago and we all wound up with front wheel drive and no rear wheel drive cars. Along comes a rear wheel drive and in my humble opinion good looking car that has great performance that is rear wheel drive and some individuals can only critize. Maybe this evolution will evolve into a good looking 2 seat spider of old that we can afford. This is the first step for Alfa to possibly go to the next step. Ford bought Jag a while back and improved the bred but it still was a Jag. If I could afford this Alfa I would buy it and be proud of it while smilling all the way down the highway!
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I agree. The 8C started the new design segment of Alfa... They had to do something big in order to re launch the brand and for my modest opinion they actually where succesfull in it! The 8C is an amazing car, unique, and very hard to replicate for any brand!
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Greg
Alfa Romeo 8C Competizione 4.7 V8 & Maserati Granturismo S MC Sportline 4.7 V8
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04-08-2012, 10:23 PM
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i'm not trying to be contentious as one ...gentleman here seems to think.if my personal taste is seen that way i'm in no way sorry.as for that tranny greg.wasn't the 105 series always refered to as a porsche tranny within, as well?
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04-09-2012, 04:24 PM
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This is really going over the top! The entire world is one massive economy. Every car manufacturer is being supplied by other manufacturers for most of their base components. Is Bosche fuel injection just on german cars, i don't think so! Look most of todays manufacturers are not trying to re-invent the wheel. If another manufacturer has a product that others can benefit, why spend the money to develope something that is already out there! Raw development cost money and that equates to the cost of the automobile! Lets keep cost down so we all can afford the product not some Sheik!
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04-11-2012, 09:06 PM
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There is another thread about an Alfa test mule http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/anyt...road-mule.html.
What stuns me with a lot of what is being said, is that a car company, FIAT, can cobble together a bunch of parts from other manufacturers, in this case a Chrysler chassis and GM engine, someone who (supposedly) works for what's left of Alfa Romeo can have a fiddle and a play with it, they drop a different body on it and they call it an Alfa Romeo....... 
If you start with an existing chassis ( Not The Exterior Body!), you know, that stamped sheet metal frame that has a whole bunch of car defining features like wheel base, track width, engine and transmission position, torsional rigidity, 1 half of the suspension geometry and other important things, how much do you really think they are going to change to then be able to legitimately lay claim to 'it' being 'their' chassis?
Now with the test mule there is mention of the chassis being widened and lengthened.
But with the Maserati chassis, what did Alfa Romeo do with it?
Short of changing some spring rates, damper valving and suspension bushing specs (have a look at the way, and I had this terminology, 'modern' cars suspension bushes are designed), what have they changed in the chassis that makes it an Alfa Romeo chassis?
Is it wider or narrower?
Longer or shorter?
Does it have different torsional rigidity characteristics?
Were the positions of the engine and/or transmission changed?
Was the chassis end of the suspension geometry change (assuming the suspension attaches directly to the chassis and not a sub-frame)?
What about the engine?
OK it's got more displacement. Big deal! Maserati designed and built the major components that define an engine. The block and the heads.
If you get a Chev engine and put a Scat stroker crank in it, it's not now a Scat engine, is it?
What's next, the tune inside the computer determines who can claim ownership of the engine?
To me this is like American's who tell you they speak 'American' rather than speaking English. Yeah, you can change a few things here and there, but unless you start from scratch with your own design, it aint yours to claim as your own!
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Last edited by Duk; 04-11-2012 at 10:16 PM.
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04-12-2012, 12:41 AM
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Duk,
Good points, but here's my view  .
Take the 156. That car is what most Alfisti would expect Alfa Romeo to build, it matches the Alfa Romeo dna. The new Guilietta matches it perfectly.
The modern 8c does not match the "modern" Alfa Romeo dna ... that is my biggest problem. It perfectly matches the dna of a Ferrari or Maserati, not an Alfa Romeo. Maybe back in the 30's Alfa Romeo might have made something like this but since the 50's Alfa Romeo has clearly, very clearly, meant light compact car that carries usually 4 people that gets impressive performance from a relatively small engine and does very well on the race track (well actually that has always been part of the dna).
The 8c is a large heavy car (although most modern cars are heavy), that has a whomping great big motor, is not being raced anywhere and from motoring magazine articles does not handle well (thankfully some owners here disagree ...) or has been setup just for the track and is uncomfortable off it. No Alfa I have ever owned has ever not been comfortable on a public road, usually very compliant.
Pete
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04-12-2012, 01:40 AM
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i'm just asking myself a few questions.that bugatti that they pulled out of the drink a short time ago.will it be restored ,and if so will it be a genuine bug?the composition of the parts remanufactored can in no way be the same as the original.old man ettore won't be fussin around that rebuild.is there a engraved number on it that's not rotted away ,or will they conjure one up by majic? it will be a replica at the end of the day but one that will fetch the million mark easily.todays technology will gurantee it will not be a bug.there is no nos for a car like that and probably never was.alfa was never built on the concept of say the tvr. they were built in all configurations to sell.those alfa limos of the thirtees.what did they have in handling or in performance that separated them from the other upscale limos? would any one argue they aint alfas? every car is a compromise as we know.we loved alfas compromises better.i love my gtv6 and think the styling is great .i love my 75 and think it great as well. as for these new alfas.i don't dig fwd.never have.as for the 8c.i like the compromise concept of the new mustangs much better.
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04-12-2012, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duk
What about the engine?
OK it's got more displacement. Big deal! Maserati designed and built the major components that define an engine. The block and the heads.
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are you sure its Maserati and not Ferrari... thats the way its is nowdays, they are same company and there is no any real Alfa Romeo or either Maserati ... they all uses components that the group can offer. You need to be in this day and not in the past
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04-12-2012, 11:15 AM
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i basicly agree with vsix.i'd just add it aint no souped up ferrari or maser.it's a souped sideways.
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04-12-2012, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vsix
are you sure its Maserati and not Ferrari... thats the way its is nowdays, they are same company and there is no any real Alfa Romeo or either Maserati ... they all uses components that the group can offer. You need to be in this day and not in the past
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Yes ... but it is very important that the resulting car makes a clear statement about the direction of the firm and the dna or type of car they stand for.
Look at Saab, their cars had little focus and it was hard to determine what they really were trying to be and now they are gone.
So yes an engine or gearbox is just and engine or gearbox but the assembled components should make a statement and provide intended company personality.
The 8c is just so different to any other modern Alfa Romeo I'm not really sure what it was trying to say? Was it an ad campaign? ... but then Alfa Romeo don't make these sorts of cars. Was it saying that Alfa Romeo was going to upmarket and return to making the type of cars that they used to before WWII? ... but then they would be in direct competition with Maserati and Ferrari, so that does not make sense (to me). Was it to wake America up to say Alfa Romeo still exist? ... maybe, but then you need to back this up with actually delivering typical Alfa Romeos to that country, not delay and delay ... and then delay again.
Pete
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Last edited by PSk; 04-12-2012 at 03:56 PM.
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04-12-2012, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PSk
So yes an engine or gearbox is just and engine or gearbox but the assembled components should make a statement and provide intended company personality.
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I think that may be simplify engines and gearboxes a bit to much.......... 
But you make good points about what Alfa Romeo's target market really is.
Regardless of what it is like to drive, I think the 8C was just a very pretty, FIAT group publicity stunt.
For me it's also more proof that Alfa Romeo is the automotive equivalent of the old 'A Weekend at Bernies' movie. It's a dead maque and FIAT are just slapping its name on these concoction of other car brands part and flogging them off under the iconic name of Alfa Romeo. 
Some people are saying that it's just the way it is now, that you use resources from within the group, but when they start churning out a Chrysler chassis-ed, GM engined contraption (rebodied FIAT's were bad enough) and call it an Alfa, I'm sorry people, but that's just an insult!
If Alfa Romeo were doing what Lotus are doing (Lotus chassis with Toyota engines), where they design their own chassis, and make it a good rear wheel drive, rather than just another of a million other front wheel drives. And then they used a FIAT family engine, fine. But they can't even do that............
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Last edited by Duk; 04-12-2012 at 06:43 PM.
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04-12-2012, 06:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duk
But you make good points about what Alfa Romeo's target market really is.
Regardless of what it is like to drive, I think the 8C was just a very pretty, FIAT group publicity stunt.
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From that point of view it worked very well. It has certainly kept the Alfa name out there. Personally I don't see what is wrong with Alfa taking a basic chassis and suspension and modifying it to Alfa standards if it means they can save some money and keep the marque going. After all, many of us here, (and you especially Duk), are doing exactly that with cars that are all Alfa designed, because we think they could be better. Alfa are not a tiny niche market manufacturer like Lotus, or Morgan, who can afford to be completely eccentric. I would hate to be trying to run a car company in this day and age. It is a massively complex market where the average buyer has been wooed by companies like Toyota, into thinking that the best sort of car to buy is one that sounds like a sewing machine, feels like you are riding on a blancmange and disappears into the background with all the other cars that look almost exactly the same. We, on the BB, are a long way from being anything like the average car buyer whom Alfa needs to try to sell to somehow. Those average buyers are scared to death of radically different cars. Working out how to sell something different to them would be a nightmare. At least Alfa are still there and making cars that are different from the rest to a fair extent. The alternative is that Alfa just disappears, which is certainly not what I would like to see happen.
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04-12-2012, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oz3litre
From that point of view it worked very well. It has certainly kept the Alfa name out there. Personally I don't see what is wrong with Alfa taking a basic chassis and suspension and modifying it to Alfa standards if it means they can save some money and keep the marque going. After all, many of us here, (and you especially Duk), are doing exactly that with cars that are all Alfa designed, because we think they could be better.
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But no one on here is renaming their Alfa because they make a few changes, big or small, to it.
It's too late now, but I would have rather seen Alfa Romeo pass on and be remembered for their own cars, than be remembered than for what FIAT are doing to the name.
I just do not consider them to be a car manufacturer or even their own identity, anymore.
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