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VM's 164L No start and power issues New Thread

5K views 41 replies 5 participants last post by  Del 
#1 ·
One 1991 164L w/5 speed no start issue.

Yes, yes and yes. The car started, ran & drove fine after the clutch fix. Then, we drove it 18 miles to Bi-Mart, and when we came out to start it, the ruckus began. We had started it at least 5 times successfully before this. I checked and rechecked all the connections, even cleaned them.

VM
Let's start a new thread on just this VM's and Hefe's no starter issue,

I've lost track of what has been done not done in this thread of posts within a bigger thread of Alfa Related stuff.

1. Are you working with a new/proven good battery?
2. Is seat moving forward issue still a problem?
3. Does dash power up when key turned on?
4. You did test starter before you installed and it work about 5 times you said.
5, Have you tried 12v power directly to pin 1 black wire in Engine half of G151 big round multi pin connector harnes that goes through round hole in false firewall?

Do you have good multimeter to do the voltage and resistance checks of electrical system?
 
#2 ·
what's been done

One 1991 164L w/5 speed no start issue.



Let's start a new thread on just this VM's and Hefe's no starter issue,

I've lost track of what has been done not done in this thread of posts within a bigger thread of Alfa Related stuff.

1. Are you working with a new/proven good battery? has been a good battery - we also jumped it when no crank issue first started. It's an Optima.
2. Is seat moving forward issue still a problem yes
3. Does dash power up when key turned on? yes
4. You did test starter before you installed and it work about 5 times you said. yes, bench tested at O-Reilly's 2 or 3 times he said, and successfully started car around 5 times.
5, Have you tried 12v power directly to pin 1 black wire in Engine half of G151 big round multi pin connector harnes that goes through round hole in false firewall? no.

Do you have good multimeter to do the voltage and resistance checks of electrical system? yes
Now that I have disconnected the solenoid AND the battery cables, I am going to try it again with my battery out of the car. R2 gave me good suggestions (or rather, how he would do it) and I will see what happens. I HOPE I can get good enough connections to get enough power. Will make sure the battery is well charged before I go there.

I will report back.

V
 
#3 ·
91-93 164 starter and power distribution wiring diagrams

The 91-93 164 starter and power distribution wiring diagrams for your viewing pleasure.

Dotted line in starter diagram for 5-speed models.

Note: I added in B1 ignition switch and purple starter relay power wire going to N45 Anti-theft unit in trunk. The 241a two-wire connector where you can bypass N45 is located in center console to right off shifter under right side console carpet panel.
 

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#4 ·
smart woman this VM seems. "good suggestions (or rather, how he would do it)"... Ciao, Chris
 
#5 ·
Thanks, Chris

:laugh2:

Actually, did a test of starter on car but powered externally but don't trust results because I don't trust the electrical connections I had. Will try again tomorrow. Enuf said.

VM
 
#6 ·
where it's at

Steve, thanks for the diagrams.

Well, no new news on the 164. The externally powered test I did was dismal. The solenoid clunked and that was it. However, I tried a similar test on the starter I removed from the car when I did the clutch, and I had similar results because I didn't have a really good power connection. Once I had good connections the starter spun like a son-of-a-gun. Duh. So, wanted to re-test the starter on the car before I got really depressed, and haven't had time. We're getting ready to travel back to the west side of the state to pour some concrete patio slabs. Oh joy. I'm having trouble getting the solenoid connected to the test wire I made (I already whined about that). I used an alligator clip for my so-so trial, it was wiggly and I'm not convinced I had a good connection. That's my hope. Otherwise the starter motor is locked up/shorted, I don't know what.

Anyway, here's a picture of the starter cable I pulled off the car. I replaced it with the one from Trevor's car, which looked perfect. This cable looks like it's been ugly for awhile, judging by the green on the wires. Interesting that yours truly didn't "notice" this problem when she did the tranny. When will I learn??????? I replaced the cable but had no joy on cranking the engine - the solenoid just rat-a-tat-tatted and front seats moved forward and another thunking sound like I'm not sure what - door locks energizing? It was after this that I decided to check the starter with external power (not connected to the Alfa wiring). Should have waited for Steve's recent email.

I may not be able to check the forum for a week or too. After the concrete pour on Tuesday I have to stay through the weekend to do a trade show in Portland AND try to get to the bottom of a problem with the beloved war wagon, which has been stranded over there for a month now. I have a "professional" Chevy mechanic there who's anxious to help me. Hopefully I won't need it.

Will be back in touch when I can. I will try to use a neighbor's computer so I can at least see what y'all are up to!

VM
 

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#7 ·
"smart woman this VM seems"

Oh yes. Have met her. Just like R2, she is very talented, not afraid of diving into the job, and is able to figure things out and do the job. I was really impressed that she replaced the clutch all by herself, among other chores on the 164. Hopefully she will get this sorted out.
 
#8 ·
Hi gang. Sorry for the long silence. Finally got some weather and a little time to think again about the 164. Nev - you said you had a wiring harness out - or anybody else who has this info: what is the routing of the big black power wire that comes from the battery all the way to G56 on the false firewall? I can see where it goes under a plastic trim piece under the rear passenger door, but what is its route after that, before I see it at G56? And from the battery it is taped together with a red power wire which I ASSUME is the "always hot" wire which eventually powers the seats and other things (is this true?). Where is its final destination? Does it stay with "big and black" all the way to G56? Sorry but my memory for all the wires connected to G56 is a bit hazy. Yes I have the schematics, but now its time for dinner so I'm afraid I'm done for running out and looking at things for the moment. Wanted to get this question out there before Turkey day. I hope you all eat way too much and don't talk politics or religion during the feast.

Hoping for progress here. We're having Chinook winds, it's 70 degrees! and another sunny day on Friday.

Veronica
 
#10 ·
hey thanks! I have turkey to attend also. Tomorrow is going to be dry, so hoping to prioritize on the 164. This has been going on way too long. I need to get to the bottom of it. Is it the starter, or is it the wiring? My luck I got a crap starter off of Ebay. Ya'll have fun and don't do any posting while drunk...
or too drunk

Cheers!!!

VM
 
#14 · (Edited)
Ok, relax ya'll! I may have. Yes. Oh well. Obviously not the ground as the ground is about a foot long from battery. Yes, yes excuse my drunken post (not drunk just busy), this is the [POWER/12V/+/Battery cable] from battery to 40amp fuse in engine compartment. (g56). If you dig under the driver side, upside down you can find it BURIED in there. Like I said the grommet in fire wall is about 8-10" down from 40amp fuse box.

Have you taken voltage readings from the cable? Repair that worn wire and see what happens, most likely battery. Make sure you get Napa battery...number escapes me after my drunken stupor. ;) I will grab number later....

 
#15 ·
So y'all think a bad battery is causing my solenoid to click and the seats to run forward? How does that work? Today I was going to try bypassing the anti-theft, and put 12 volts to the pin in the connector 151. This battery was working OK, and even when we jumped it, no joy. It's a red Optima, and it is pretty old. I swapped out that nasty starter power cable already, and am in the process of hooking everything back up so i can test starter in car again.

I'm reassured that what i thought was happening with those two wires was correct. As a girlie girl who is a real novice at trouble shooting electrical stuff, i don't have much confidence! I'd make hefe do it (the electronic wizard), but he can't grovel under the dash and reach up around the starter connections like I can!

If the price of wheat weren't so bad, I'd go out and buy a new battery today, but right now I am going to have to make do. Hefe may decide to buy a new battery for the Spider, and if so, I'll borrow it for testing the 164.

Also - prior to this cranking failure, the alternator showed the appropriate voltage going to the battery, so hopefully that circuit is working.

Also, did I mention that everytime the solenoid tries to spin the starter, the dash lights go out? Like there is a massive current drain. I suppose that would be expected of a bad battery, as well. it's the moving seats that make me suspect a rodent improvement with the power wires somewhere.

Well, I managed to creep home from pendleton last night under the influence of turkey and wine but we have brilliant sunshine today, so I'm hoping for a jampacked day of fun outdoors. And to top it all off, the check engine light came on in the Subaru we're driving. And I think that car's due for a timing belt. Jeese. What next. And winter approaching! Guess I'd really better get this Alfa back on the road!

V
 
#16 ·
I betcha you have a bad/near dead battery and then maybe an alternator charge wire containing two smaller red wires with black covering connector not connected to the starter terminal that you may not have reconnected to starter.

Did voltmeter show 14v when you had engine running or just battery voltage?
 
#19 ·
14V to battery



Oh yes the alternator charge wire was connected. Oh I would love if it were that simple...

I relied on the dashboard gauge for that. (14v on gauge when engine running).

I routinely relied on the same battery after it had been on a charger, when doing my previous troubleshooting. But I know batteries can be fine, and then not. Or really marginal, and then they're just junk. Based on previous experience...

V
 
#17 ·
Well, I am not insinuating the battery is dead. But if low can cause some funky things to happen.

"Also, did I mention that everytime the solenoid tries to spin the starter, the dash lights go out? Like there is a massive current drain. I suppose that would be expected of a bad battery, as well. it's the moving seats that make me suspect a rodent improvement with the power wires somewhere."

This to me sounds about right, (almost)Dead battery. Mice for the most part like upfront in false fire wall under plastic cover. Or they crawl in trunk via fuel vapor hoses next to tank filling hose. Pull out trunk carpet and see what's up around in there as well as front false fire wall.
 
#18 ·
I did reconnect BOTH connectors to starter: the main power wire AND the connector that then goes to the alternator. Like I have said, everything WAS working. Then not. This same battery started the Spider. Of course that's not really a guarantee of anything.

I also found the mummified mouse UNDER the wire bundle next to the glove box, and evidence of mouse activity behind the main fuse panel. So, my mice know no boundaries. And I found where they chewed the back seat seater wires. I have inspected all the wiring that is easy to inspect, and put everything in the trunk and under the back seats in wireloom. The mice don't seem as fond of that as they are of insulation proper.

Would like to get a new battery, but also want to try bypassing the anti-theft and see if that makes a difference.

To be continued...

VM
 
#20 · (Edited)
I would also agree that if you turn the key to engage the starter, and the dash lights dim and the solenoid clicks, those are the usual signs of a low battery, having experienced that myself when I've let the battery in the LS slowly drain from inactivity (and failing to remove the radio fuse).

Have you disconnected the wiring for the "wandering" seats, and then try to start the car with a charged battery to see what happens? Might be that removing the seats from the electrical system might change the starting response. If nothing else, the seats shouldn't move. I'd adjust them to where you want and then pull the plug on them.

I had a problem with the driver's seat in the 91S moving up when I used the remote for locking and unlocking the doors. Something weird and cross wired I guess. I gave up using the remote for that task, just using the key to lock the car. I prefer doing that anyway.
 
#21 ·
Speaking of batteries, BB4 was sluggish to start yesterday and dash icons dimmed as starter dragged voltmeter down to about 8v but it started. Took awhile for alternator to come online and bring VM back to 14v but it was 29F and cold in the garage.

Buster had to go to the Vet turns out he was peeing blood and in the house on Turkey Day. He is on antibiotics now for urinary track infection

It had been setting in garage since before my surgery on 16th. I am going put battery charger on it today.

Hope to start the S today if battery still up as it has sat longer than BB4.

I am getting better and go for post-op recheck Thursday Nov 30th.
 
#22 ·
Del -as soon as I found the seat fuse under the dash I pulled it and tried again, hoping that would make a difference. Same thing.

HOWEVER. There may be progress. I'm suspecting the exciter wire connection. First in the parking lot there was the solenoid clicking and no cranking, even with a jump to G56, after no luck jumping to the battery itself. Then, nothing at all, and when we got the car back to Athena I found that the exciter wire connection had completely popped off the solenoid! I managed to get it back on, and same symptoms. I've trying to re-connect the starter to the car's wiring to continue my testing, and even when I thought I had the exciter wire connected, it practically fell off when I started fooling around with the big power cable. I found another male spade connector and plugged it into the exciter wire connector to test the fit, and it was pretty lose. The starter I have installed has a threaded post (as well as a male spade), so i am thinking of TRYING to put an eye on the exciter wire and put it on that post with nut and washer so I know that it's secure. But we all know how tough it is to access that connection on the starter. I did get the Alfa up higher on jack stands today, and will just have to drink a beer right after breakfast and start in, determined to achieve success!

I've had the solenoid click but not turn the starter before when this battery was low. This is the first time i've had the seats move forward at the same time! I'm still thinking maybe I should try bypassing the anti-theft module. WHEN I get the starter re-connected to the car's wiring properly.

carry on!

VM
 
#23 ·
"as soon as I found the seat fuse under the dash I pulled it and tried again, hoping that would make a difference. Same thing"

I guess I would have gone under the seats to disconnect them there to be sure they are isolated, since if there is a wiring problem somewhere else, breaking the connections under the seats would be the sure thing to do for that particular problem.

Hope you have good luck with the starter problem. Frustrating I know, but probably something quite simple but totally obscure, lol.
 
#24 ·
Del - that is an interesting point. I did unplug the connector under the driver's seat and try that (because i was too ignorant to find the yellow seat fuse, inspite of Alfisto steve's repeatedly telling me where it was, and he did tell me where to find the seat power connection and it was easier to get to then that darned seat fuse up under the dash!), but I can't remember if I unplugged BOTH seats. I can only imagine what kind of a nightmare it's going to be to get a good connection at the starter solenoid with ANYTHING, but I have to try. I hope I don't have to unbolt the starter just so I can get at that stud. But there does seem to be something funky going on with the exciter wire. Seems like you had to replace your exciter wire connector a while back. Or I remember someone on the forum doing that. I'm impressed, now that I've struggled with the thing. I was keeping the battery charged up, and checking its voltage before every test...

OK. Enough for now. It may or may not be stormy and wet tomorrow. Monday will be dry. I will have to face my electrical demons then.

Wish me luck! I'm sick of this. Hefe needs his car! So's I can start working on the Subaru and the war wagon...

VM
 
#25 ·
We wish you luck, lots of it. The seat problem may be an indication of a wiring problem, but with them totally isolated, that ought to let you forget about that particular problem and concentrate on the nonfunctioning starter. I suspect the two problems are not related to each other. We hope anyway.
 
#26 ·
Yeah, I just hope #1 I can get a solid connection from the exciter wire to the solenoid.
#2) test again with a well-charged battery
#3) if same results, try disconnecting BOTH seats
#4) try bypssing anti-theft

OMG what if the starter still won't crank the engine????

Anyway. It's Sunday night and I'm not going to think Alfa anymore.

Tomorrow's a dry day and we'll give it all a go, as they say across the pond.

Cheers!

VM
 
#27 ·
We are all hoping that it is just two separate problems, a low battery which can cause the start/light/solenoid symptoms for sure, and maybe a mice caused problem messing with the seats when the ignition is turned on.

The one big worry might be that maybe mice damage is shorting out some wiring upstream of the seats, but I'm still not sure the starter wiring and seat wiring is anywhere close to each other to be affected that way.
 
#28 ·
OK back to this thread - right now I am fixing the exciter wire connection, which hasn't been reliable. And checking the insulation on the wires going to the starter and alternator.

Hope to have the car back in test mode tomorrow.

Cheers!

VM
 
#29 · (Edited)
Well, here's hoping all goes well. We're all rooting for success. You deserve it big time, what with the work you've put into the car, out there in the wheat fields, lol. Plus, that car should be singing it's heart out up and down those roads.

I'm just plain impressed
 
#30 ·
Well, we'll see. Otherwise I will have TWO parts cars offered up on this forum.

On a lighter side: I think the farmer across the street is finally going to build his shop. Roof trusses arrived today, although I don't even see a slab yet. I'm going to do some major sucking up in hopes of borrowing some indoor shop time in the future. He will probably even have an engine hoist, if I don't want to bring mine over from the Portland area. He participated in the acquisition of Trevor's 164, so he's kind of already poisoned. Today is stormy, so what better time to go up to the radio tower site? Tomorrow is supposed to be sunny before the rain comes back, so that's a better day for Alfa work.

Will report back tomorrow or this weekend.

V
 
#31 ·
She cranks!

:grin2:

So here's another fact for the no crank data base: CHECK YOUR EXCITER WIRE CONNECTION.

I won't go into details, but I actually had to lower the starter, re-do the funky exciter wire connection on my funky ebay starter, and put it all back together. Basically this starter came with the option of spade or threaded post connector. I decided NOT to cut the exciter wire and put an "eye" (ring?) connector on it (I wanted to put a jumper, ring to spade, but hefe wouldn't agree). The spade connector on this starter was held on by a nut on the post, and there was no lock washer, so any motion at all loosened it. I put one of those little "star" lock washers under the nut, reconnected the original spade, then bolted the starter back in place. I can't believe how good I am getting at dealing with that 3rd starter bolt.

Anyway. I finished putting everything back together last night after dark (and nearly hypothermic), and today Hefe hooked up the battery and low and behold, the engine cranked like crazy. Didn't start, but that's trivial. That's easy to trouble shoot.

So, any fault in the exciter wire can cause crazy things to happen!

VM
 
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