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Msiert's Black Spider Project

371K views 2K replies 125 participants last post by  SalmonOfKnowledge 
#1 · (Edited)
Murray's Black Spider Project

After some nudging from Green Dragon and 60’sRacer I decided it would be nice to have all the information on my project on one “Thread” so I am creating this one.

I would first like to thank JohnM., Conedriver, Little Italian, 60’sRacer, Genericwood, for all their help, a Big thanks to Steve Schwitter’s (Rockford IL.) who built and designed the engine and everything around it and Bob Payton at Speedlab (SpringGrove IL) who provided and tuned the Autronic's SM2 programmable ecu to perfection.

In this project I kept all the luxuries of the S-4 Spider like the power windows, A/C, power steering and brake’s so from the outside she will look stock for the street use.

This is what I did in the project:

1. A big valve fully prep race engine (CR of 10.4)
2. Twin Individual Throttle Body's and carbon fiber airbox
3. Aluminum flywheel
4. 7.25 in dia Tilton using a Clutch-Net sprung hub clutch disc
5. Installed an Autronic SM2 programmable ECU.
6. Modified the intake VVT and added a modified exhaust VVT
7. Autronic 500R Direct Fire Ignition
8. Modified the cooling system
9. Modified the cold air intake
10. Rebuilt the TX with lighten gears
11. Gated the oil sump
12. Switched out the 4.10 axle to a 4.58 that is shimmed to 50%
13. Installed Outlaw calipers and Tar-Ox rotors all the way around
14. Switch out the 26 mm front sway bar to a 29 mm
15. Switch out the Koni’s Red’s for Yellows
16. Custom bolt in Roll Bar with a removable Petty Bar
17. Custom seat frames for the Sparco race seats
18. New seat covers and bases
19. Custom 2.5" Burns Stainless exhaust system.


I will briefly go over each of these modifications and have plenty of picture’s. It will take some time so be patient.

Murray

To start off here is the before and after Engine bay.
 

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#1,647 · (Edited)
Update

Took the jug of axle oil and the rag that I cleaned off the drain plug mag with to Curt and Bob (my mechanic's) and Curt said the metal was the bearings the gears should be fine but the box needs to be rebuilt and he can do it.

I mention to him that thought I was going to need to find another 4.56 LS that I heard it was a time consuming job to rebuild with having to set the preload and all and he said it's not a big deal........

Both Bob and Curt work for Jack Beck as mechanic's for years before they open up there own shop so I'm lucky to have them.

But still not a cost I was planning on.....:(

Heck it was just last week when I thought, man there's nothing to do on the Spider.:D
 
#1,649 ·
It's sure screwing the heck out of a track event I was planning to do before the convention don't think there's another one either but glad I'm caught it in time to be rebuilt before leaving.

They said I could still drive the car till I bring it in so I guess I could continue to work on the peddle setup and practice heel and toe down shifts.
 
#1,650 · (Edited)
Ok.........It's set up for June 6th for the axle rebuild and I'm thinking that it would be a good time to change out the trailing arm bushings.

I put in IAP poly bushings front and rear back in 2003 so they may still fine but been thinking for several years of switching the trailer arm bushings back to rubber. I bought the rubber bushings to do this a couple of years ago.....did I lose 2 yrs of life with them sitting on the shelf?

I know there's different opinons between poly or rubber bushings in the trailing arms but it seems that using rubber on the front of the arm and poly on the rear is accepted more the all poly?

I have notice that right after a track session the rear poly look twisted and deformed but after a bit they go back to normal? Makes me wonder if they arn't binding up on the track?

The thing I don't like about the rubber is you don't know what your getting anymore and they do wear out faster?

Sorry for all the questions, what do you guys think?............
 
#1,651 ·
Interesting question Murray. I'm a fan of the OEM rubber, but I have heard of quality issues for new rubber bushings. I've had just two sets of OEM bushings in 44 years in my Duetto; I have one more in storage (NOS - and about 20 years old stored in my garage). OTOH, I've heard of problems with the polys in a very short time, especially in racing. I don't think two years of shelf storage will be any issue beyond the production quality of the ones you got.

The reason I favor the rubber bushings is that there is a needed rotation in the trailing arms as the body rolls. The polys are so much stiffer than the OEMs that this has to be limited - that's probably why your polys are torqued up after a track session. I'd rather keep all that twist resistance in the rear roll bar, where I have some control.

Just remember when you put the rubber bushes in to torque the front and rear of the trailing arms AFTER the car is on the ground and weighted properly, whether you use poly or OEM.

I think the poly upper cone bushings are fine - the tapers provide for all the twist needed there; likewise for the poly sway bar bushings.

Of course, you could put spherical bearings in both ends - like we did for racing. Very precise, no twist issues at all. Noisy as can be - you could probably count the gravel pieces - and that sound makes them seem like they are very harsh when they are not.

Robert
 
#1,652 · (Edited)
Thanks for the reply Robert.........I'm going to do the rubber bushings on the front and rear of the arms, might as well got the bushings on the shelf ready to go. It will be interesting to see what the IAP red poly bushings look like when there out.

A lot of stuff has been done to the suspension since I've been on the track last (Chicago Convention in 2008)

1. Front suspension has been rebuilt (all original rubber with the right inner control arm bushing migrated out and arm pinned to one side)

2. Put the rear sway bar in right side up and install new poly bushings. With the sway bar in in upside down it was acting like a bump stop limiting the travel by half I bet.

It's amazing I could drive it at all in that condition but I was only running on 3 good cylinders and running part throttle on those........Ohhh boy that Budsy Misashift and JohnM isn't going to stand a chance in Kentucky.:D:D:D
 
#1,655 · (Edited)
Limited Slip

Got a limited slip question for you all.

I'm beginning to think the shop that rebuilt my axle added limited slip. When making a 90 degree right or left hand turn at lite to zero throttle the axle chatters, same when turning around in the driveway. With lite throttle around tight turns it's fine and theres no whining while cruzing.

Haven't jack it up to see what the rear wheels do while turning one but will this weekend.

When I talk to shop owner today he said they added shims and torque it down to 150 lbs.........I ask what percentage of lock out that was and he said he really never done the math on it. Guessing my axle got rebuilt just like he did when he was with Jack Beck?

Just curious what does a torque value of 150 lbs has to do with LS and how can I tell if the LS been lock out?
 
#1,656 ·
Is the shop where you had the work done familiar with Alfa diffs?

For the Alfa 2L LSD, there are two interleaved friction discs and two extra spacers; The Competition Handbook highlights that you can replace the spacers with two more friction discs, and stack them interleaved with the drive discs. You get three friction surfaces on each side of the diff instead of one.

But in NO case should these be preloaded with extra shims. The diff assembly handbook shows the technique for measuring the proper spacers, wether you have two or four friction discs. Properly assembled, there is little or no "preload" depending on what that actually means. There should be very little starting torque ( one common use of the term preload). The differential drives the inner and outer friction plates up a load ramp to lock up the torque transfer as the load requires. This is NOT a detroit type load transfer diff, and building it like one is wrong.

Excessive preload - which I think you have a LOT of - just wears out the $100 each friction discs and fills the diff with metal particles.

Doen properly, the 4-disc diff drives just fine on streets unless you accelerate in the turns. There is little load transfer at slow speeds and light loads.

Check with Richard Jameson at RJR or Jim Steck for guidance on the proper assembly of a track-set differential. They actually know what they're doing.

Robert
 
#1,657 · (Edited)
The guy that rebuilt the axle does have an extensive Alfa back ground so I have to believe that he knows what he's doing.

It was in his opinion that the reason the bearings were wearing in the first place was that there was to much preload put in on the last rebuild. So he was aware of the problem in too much preload
 
#1,659 ·
Do that test again with the transmission in gear. You should be able to turn one wheel and have the other one go the opposite direction. There should be some but not lots of resistance.

There really isn't a simple manual test of a proper working LSD at street or track loads.

Robert
 
#1,660 · (Edited)
Going to have to pull the plugs for that test I guess.........I can't get the wheel to turn more then a inch (5th gear).

I don't know maybe he said he put new shims in not additional........all l I know is the axle never chattered before when turning in a short radius.

But I did bring it back to him and he assured me it was fine even offered up pushing the a GTA around in the shop to show it chatters too.
 
#1,661 ·
Well, Murray, my Alfa LSd has four friction discs nicely interleaved and shimmed per spec; it runs just like my old racers, and has never chattered. It's pretty tight for street use, and has all the traction I need for the track. Yours sounds a LOT tighter. No real benefit to having 100% lock even for a track car. By-the-book gives you lock-out in the low 70's and that's enough to win races.

If the driver is up to it. Really high lock-out just makes for a twitchy car that's really sensitive to weight transfer.

Robert
 
#1,664 ·
Safe travels, Murray.
See you there....
Prolly find you in the parking lot.:D
 
#1,666 ·
Murray -
I'll be in an Alfa, just not mine - flyin' to Cincy and ridin' in an Alfa from there. There will be people who drive an Alfa from waaaay more than 750 miles!!!
 
#1,667 ·
Kentucky's Convention TT

Here's a video my wife took of my timed runs..........Didn't use all the track thus too slow in the corners. But took 3rd place in Class B and won a prize for being the slowest in my class.............of 3 racer's.:eek:

 
#1,668 · (Edited by Moderator)
...i am waiting for you. in San Fransico, 2012.. all you will see is the tail of a 'RED ' spider....mine...... i have a block i am rebuilding.. moly coat pistons, with ceramic tops... beehive valve springs.. cc'ed chambers..'D' intake ports.. 45 intake 38 exaust valves.. teflon coated bearings..polished crank...11 mm cams... LH jet fuel injection... t5 tranny( better shifting ) 1 peice aluimin driveshaft( a LOT ) less weight to spin up... vented disk all 4 corners, with 4 pot aluimiun calipers.. ( shead a lot of heat).. qa1 adjustable shocks, can dial them in in just seconds( no need to remove the tops to adjust).. yes, i will be done by then... slow black spider..( i even gave you a brake, told you how my car will be set up).. as for that slow white car......nowhere to hide...:):):)
 
#1,671 ·
San Fran 2013

Word has it that Jerry Q. is doing a special portrait for the fast white/slow black spider competition.:D:D:D

I have to admit...thought ole Vader was going to spank me this year. But alas, his Tie Fighter got the solar panels blown off of it.:D:D:D

Best Regards,
John M
 
#1,672 · (Edited)
a must see from convention 2011



Ladies and Gentlemen and Race Fans of all ages,

We present for your viewing pleasure the real final results from track day at the 2011 AROC convention:

1st: and Champion John M. car poor in KY.
2nd: Man O War from Keenland Farms
3rd: Mr. T from a pond near by
4th: Darth Vader in his black Tie Fighter
5th: Enrique Zuniga - if you look closely, it was said that his bow tie got caught in the wind creating a massive drag


*the truth, the whole truth so help me God
 

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#1,673 ·
Now that is funny! :D:D:D

You even have Murray in the wall as his racing differential finally locked up and put him into the fence. I told him that was going to happen numerous times at the time trial!:D:D:D

Thanks Jerry! Love it!:D:D:D

Best Regards,
John M
 
#1,676 ·
Strolling through the parking lot at Campbell House my wife see's Murray's spider and says "Oh Jerry, this is the most Beautiful Alfa I have ever seen !"

My reply "Please buy it from Him"

All true!!!
 
#1,678 ·
You know...in the end.....Vader turned from the darkside....just saying!:D:D:D

Thanks Murster. Big fun as always. You and your trailered race car aways give me a run for my money! One of these days...you just might send me on the pain train. You know...technically, Shannon is princess Leya. Tell her I said that.:D:D:D

Best Regards,
John M
 
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