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8C 2.9 412039 - Roumania

14K views 29 replies 13 participants last post by  Coolberg 
#1 ·
Does anyone know if any more has been heard of this car since Simon Moore published The Immortal 2.9?
 
#2 ·
412039

In the late 1980's this car was purchased by Terry Cohn from the Romanian dictatorship in their last days. Unfortunately, the dictatorship also sold it to someone else ?, along with a M-B W154 GP car. All told in Classic and Sportscar 1990 or thereabouts. I might have a few details slightly mixed but thats the basic story. Terry then had to fight thru the Swiss court system, and got no M-B, not sure about the Alfa. And the car should still be in Europe somewhere. Someone might remember beter, option 2 can probably look up details tonight.

Cheers
Tim
 
#3 ·
In the late 1980's this car was purchased by Terry Cohn from the Romanian dictatorship in their last days. Unfortunately, the dictatorship also sold it to someone else ?, along with a M-B W154 GP car. All told in Classic and Sportscar 1990 or thereabouts. I might have a few details slightly mixed but thats the basic story. Terry then had to fight thru the Swiss court system, and got no M-B, not sure about the Alfa. And the car should still be in Europe somewhere. Someone might remember beter, option 2 can probably look up details tonight.

Cheers
Tim
I'd heard that it was rebodied as a '38 MM spider :( Hope that I'm wrong-I always liked the stealth look of this car- most would think it a Frecca D' Oro or similar.
 
#4 ·
Interesting topic indeed;)

Tim, it would be great if you could remember where you found your infos, I am curious about this article.

Without knowing the content of the article it seems very strange to me that the car should have been in Romania in the 80ies.
Due to the fact that Romania supported Germany in WWII they were treated after the war in the same way the Russians dealed with Germany.
The owner of 412039, King Michael, was from the German Habsburger tribe, that may be an explication why they were connected to the Germans.

The King went into exile to Swizzerland, I think he's still there, but he could just save his life. His Alfas remained in Romania until the Russians took them as reparation.
In the book "Dem Silber auf der Spur" by Nikolai Alexandrow, he names Lew Schugurow as source for the information that 18 cars were brought by train to Russia. Most of them were Auto Union race cars, more interesting were of course two Alfa Romeos: a 8C2900C and a 6C2500CC.
As trophy from war those cars came into ownership of single persons or organisations.

This is why I am sceptic when I read that the 2.9 should have remained in Romania all the years.
And btw, there was no other 2.9 around to bring to Russia;)
But we know that there were also missed Auto Union cars that survived and even came through the iron curtain, so there is still hope that 039 will turn up:)

Best regards
Ciao Carlo:cool:
 
#8 ·
The car in the picture is not 8C 2.9 412039 it looks mor like an early 6C2500.
I´ve seen the picture before with the reference to Russia.
 
#7 ·
The 8C 2.9 412039 survived well in Romainia up to the eighties. In the Swedish magazine Autohistorica from late 80- or early 90-ies (haven´t got the magazine here) there is an article by swedish autohistorican Peter Haventon who travelled to Bucharest and saw the car. The article includes a lot of pictures of the car incl chassis number. The Car was in a good state with clear marks of a long life behind the iron curtain and a cat residing in the car. It was actually fitted with an 6c2300 engine just as Simon Moore suspected in his book. What has become of the car I do not know but unconfirmed rumours I´ve heard is that the car went to germany, have been converted to a MM-spider and I think I´ve seen the 6c2300 engine "ex-Romania" beeing up for sale in germany.
 
#9 ·
412039

Finally had a chance to look up my C & SC mag, and it confirmed the car in Romania 1988/89 was the 8C2900B Coupe. And right at the very end of the article pertaining to the W154 it had "And as for the Alfa, well thats another story for another time". So, could have been vaguer I guess LOL
The car will almost certainly still be somewhere in Europe and if I get a chance I will post the question on Atlas which might get a answer or not ??.
The body on it, I have got a photo but no scanner. Looks more like a late 30's 6C2500 Coupe, probably designed for 4 seats at a guess, and with an awkward sloping rear roof line sort of villa d'este ish....... Other than that fairly standard late 1930's Alfa.
Tim
 
#10 ·
De-rail this post quick

As an aside Carlo, there was an article in a 1992 copy of C & SC while looking for 8C info. that said in early 1992/ late 1991 a very rare 6C2500, valued at 1 mil. had been stolen in Russia, aparently the only 1 in Russia at the time, no details but there you go. Coincidence ??.
And much more exciting aparently there were 2 M-B SSK's still in Russia at that time..............................
Wouldnt it be fascinating if someone did a Simon Moore on some of these relic's.............

Tim
 
#11 ·
Tim, many thanks for your help!
Indeed I missed these articles:mad:
Now I will have to find it at ebay.....

Nevertheless I am still amazed that the car was in Romania at the end of the 80ies.
I expect that there is more behind the history of this 2.9 than we expect at the moment. Hard to believe that it stood 45 years in the same spot in Romania. There is no reason why we shouldn't trust Schugurow who wrote that those two Alfas went to Russia after the war.
What happened then with the car needs still to be researched.
We can not exclude the possibility that it went to Russia and later back to Romania, no matter for whatever reason that happened.

Concerning those cars that went to Russia there were already persons who did serious research on the whereabouts of them, BUT mostly on those Auto Union and Mercedes race cars. I am not aware of any Alfa Romeo related research in East Europe.
Hopefully the next edition of the 2.9 book will tell us more...

The car in the picture is not 8C 2.9 412039 it looks mor like an early 6C2500.
I´ve seen the picture before with the reference to Russia
Of course you're right! I forgot to mention this in my post.
This photo is indeed quite well known, maybe there is a certain relation to the article Tim found about the stolen Alfa in Russia. This could be the car on the photo above, although the value of 1 mil seems to be a little bit overrated;)

Best regards
Ciao Carlo:cool:
 
#12 ·
Carlo

Hi

As to the $1 million dollar Alfa., sounds like an austin powers re-run, you are completely right, it sounds like way too much, by 1992 classic car values had crashed to in some cases 20 % of what they were worth in 1990. A lot of cars got wrapped up in insurance scams of one sort or another. It paid to have the car stolen/ destroyed and collect the insurance than to sell it.
Look at Lord Brockett and others.

Secondly, you mention research into German GP cars in the pre war period, what sort of books might have this research, any suggestions ?.

Cheers
Tim
 
#14 ·
412039

Enclosed you´ll find the pictures from Autohistorica 3-1998 of 412039. Pictures are taken in Bucharest in 1987. Note the chassis no, the registration plates are the same as on the older pictures of this car in Simon Moores book (The imortal 2.9), the gearbox in unit with the backaxle and of course the cat who streches out on the hood. No doubt who is the owner of that car.
Björn In Sweden
 

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#16 ·
The text in the article goes (summarised). Peter Haventon a swedish motorjournalist went to Bucharest to see if he could find any traces of the Dusenberg that Prince Nicholas of Romania competed with in the 1933-1935 Le Mans race and the Alfa Romeo discused in this tread. The Dusenberg turned out to be in the technical museum in Bucharest since decades so that was an easy one. On tracking down the Alfa Peter found an taxidriver who could communicate in english and interpret to Romanian, gave him some dollars and cigaretts and followed the trail as of Simon Moores book. Bingo he found the owner a Mr Croituro quite easily and was showed the car who was sitting at Mr Croituros holiday home. On the torpedowall was a plate from an 6C2300 whit Chassis/Engine 700633 and the engine in the car was indeed a 6C2300. But the number 412039 was on the frame as seen in the pictures.
More of the article is based on what is told by Simon Moore in the 412039 chapter of The Immortal 2.9. If Mr Croituro really was the owner ? Peter did get a feeling that he could not have been. But couldn´t know for sure. The car was undoubtly a 2.9 with a 2.3 engine and 412039 stamped on the frame.
Björn in Sweden
 
#18 ·
Björn, many thanks again for sharing the article!!!
Amazing indeed that the car remained in Romania for all those years!

A friend of mine confirmed that the registration plates on the car are from the capital Bucharest.

Propably I am not the only one who would like to know where the car is now;)
Whereever 412039 is located today, I regard it as possible that the current owner could get into trouble because King Michael is and was official owner of the car unless he sells - or sold - it.
Bringing the car into light could raise some desires of the legal owner...
Honestly I don't hope that the car is hidden for those reasons! I would prefer to see it on the road:)

Tim, concerning the Auto Union race cars that went to Russia I have the book "Dem Silber auf der Spur" Das Schicksal der Auto-Union-Rennwagen, author Nikolai Alexandrow. I am afraid it's only availaible in German.

The book is quite interesting because we learn what happened with some of the Auto Union cars and about the history of the Russian "car";) industry in general. A good buy. I think you would find a copy at amazon.de.

Best regards
Ciao Carlo:cool:
 
#20 ·
Hello! It seems that no one has written a long time about this topic! Anyway I have some new informations! The car was a special order made in 1941. The car was delivered by train in Romania in 1942. The King Mihai, sold the car in the 1945, with only 2198 km on board. So , the car was sold leaglly by the king and there is no reason why the current owner to hide the car. After 21 years, in 1966 the car was bought by Ion Croitoru, after she passed through a number of owners, and the car was equipped with an Alfa six cylinder engine.
 

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#21 ·
the story of this car is well described in the second issue of immortal 2.9, simon moore's book.

the car is now in Germany, with a not interesting body. this is the result of the lack of historical knowledge.

fortunately, as far I know, the present owner kept the orginal body.
the original body is the treasure of this car, because for the first time in Alfa's history, we have the very tipical center grill.
wellknown from the 50's on every production models.

hope it helps

the picture with Mr Croitoru in front of his car was taken in Baneasa Forest (forest near Bucharest, Romania).
 
#25 ·
The second edition is still available from the publisher for USD 275 including shipping to USA and Canada (see here).
 
#26 ·
Thank you, Ruedi and pescara. At least the 2nd edition, which is the more complete one, is available at a decent price. I will likely order it next month.

In the meantime, is there a table or chart listing these cars with details, such as completion date, etc., like Anselmi's book has for the 6C 2500?
 
#28 ·
Mark, I'm glad you also bought "The legendary 2.3."
To me, it's the absolute best car book I've ever seen.
 
#29 ·
Hi

The car you mention in the above taken to Russia one of 2x Alfas is the car I have, which has been in our family since 1984 and was found in Harkow, Ukrain owned by Soviet aviation general/ engineer.

I am very very curious to find further history of my car and I read the point you mention that these cars were taken from Romania? Is that legitimate info? I only have my cars history up to the cars life in Soviet Union.

Does any of you know any more on this story?

The other Alfa Cabrio is also well know and I have seen pictures of it in Riga, Latvia in 1982 on the RIga Racing Track where my father Viktors Kulbergs organized the oldtimer rally

P.S. My father was the person who saved the Auto Union V16 from scraping in MOscow in Soviet times late 70ties

Would appreciate any info or legend you have on my Alfa 6C2500 S 1940 915108
 

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#30 ·
Well I could shed the light on the many cars found by my father in Soviet Union, what the book is telling you. I have spent my childhood with those cars. The Auto Union 16 cylinder was saved by my father from scrapping and it was standing in our garden for some time, where I was put at the cocpit to calm me down for couple of hours being 1 year old.
My father has writen a book which I am trying to publish after his death, which is also translated in English. There you can find the real orifinal story how the Auto Union and other cars like Mile Migli BMW 328 Nr71, Stalins armored 7,5ton ZIS and many many others were saved from destruction in Soviet Union. If someone could help me with possibility to help to publish the book. Have all the well ilustrated book made in PDF
 

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