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Clutch Master Cyl. Problems

24K views 52 replies 8 participants last post by  johndewaele 
#1 · (Edited)
Well I went to rebuild my Clutch Master Cyl. and got an excellent diagram from PapaJam/Jim and this is where I ran into problems. Ok looks like the PO replaced the origonal unit with an ATE and shouldn't have. I got the unit out and disasembled, and noticed the shaft was bent badly. I happen to have the previous unit (type unknown, included with the car), and noticed that the shaft on this unit was much shorter. I always wondered why the book said travel should be 12mm. Has anyone else run into this? Also any recommendations? Here are the pictures. In picture 1 you see the old unit that came in the trunk (top) and the ATE unit on the bottom. Take a look at picture 2 and I think I found the reason this unit failed. My main question is: Is the top unit a Benditalia/Bonaldi unit? If it is then I think I need to get a replacement, but cant tell in the IAP catalog if they have this unit. Has anyone else run into this? Also any recommendations?
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#36 ·
Pivot Pin and arm removal

Ok finally went back and decided to "follow/read the instructions" (RTFM). Managed to get the pedal housing up where I could work on it and got the pin out, and then the pivot arm.

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Here's what the pin looks like. Note it is bevelled, but only on one side.

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Here is a comparison of the new pivot arm and the old one, obviously repaired by a lazy PO ( Incorrectly)

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OK tomorrow I will try to install the new one. I dont think this is going to be fun, but got to get it done.
 
#44 ·
Here is a comparison of the new pivot arm and the old one, obviously repaired by a lazy PO ( Incorrectly)
I have seen this done voluntarily on a Spider, but the other way. The original owner was very tall, he wanted to move the pedals away.

I don't think your problem is with the throwout bearing. I had a seized throwout bearing on another car (Chevy Celebrity!!!) and it squeals like crazy!

Unfortunately, I think you may have a broken diaphragm spring on your pressure plate. The clutch still transmits torque, sort of, but when you try to release it the force transmitted through the throwout bearing has got nothing to build leverage.

There may be easier to fix hypothesis though.
 
#37 ·
Got it in

Well I did it. Used these handy 45 degree long pliers to get the pin behind the clutch pedal attachment point then tightened everything up.

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One problem I didnt anticipate is the IAP pivot is a little beefier ( wider) where it goes into the fork. They had also painted it pretty heavily, so I had to file off the paint.

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I then measured 134 mm and hooked up the master cyl. and put in a new cotter pin.

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Next Im going to bleed the system and see where I am. BTW here is the top of the clutch pedal where it is attached to the pivot.
 

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#39 ·
didnt work

Well Everything measures up correctly, the system is bled and I have 11-12mm of movement at the slave actuator, but still will not go into gear with the engine running. Looks like something is keeping the trans turning even when in neutral. The only thing I can think off is a damaged throwout bearing , because I have noticed a rattle , with the clutch disengaged (Pedal to the floor). Any comments, suggestions, before I pull the transmission?
 
#40 ·
Our transmissions don't easily go into first gear from a stopped position. My understanding is that isn't a synchronizer for the 'up shift' (N -> 1) although there is a synchro for the down shift (2 -> 1).

If you first 'touch' another gear (I usually use 3rd) to slow/stop the spinning gears then move the lever into first does that make any difference? If so that is quite normal.
 
#41 ·
Touching gears

I need to double check this, becuase usually this is how I get into reverse ( go to 1st to stop trans then to R, but right now though at a stop with the engine running I cant get into 1,2,3,or 4th, (a lot of grinding). If I start the car in gear I am able to let out the clutch and take off no problem from 1,2, and reverse.
 
#43 ·
Actuating rod

Yep 134 mm, but will triple check, also may have spotted a slight leak. I get a new unit tomorrow, so will replace master anyway, but if the slave is moving the clutch fork the 11-12 mm this should be enough right?
 
#45 · (Edited)
call me crazy, but..

I keep hoping for something simple, but it looks like I have to pull the trans anyway, just to figure out what is going on. On hand for the job; I so far have a new throwout bearing, a new pilot bushing, a new flex line and slave cyl. and have ordered , a new master cyl. new front and rear trans seals . I didn't think I needed the clutch and pressure plate because the car pulls well, but once I get it out I will see. I want to stop short of cracking the case, even though I have had bad 2nd gear synchros. If anyone else has any ideas please keep them coming.
 
#46 ·
I keep hoping for something simple, but it looks like I have to pull the trans anyway, just to figure out what is going on. On hand for the job; I so far have a new throwout bearing, a new pilot bushing, a new flex line and slave cyl. and have ordered , a new master cyl. new front and rear trans seals . I didn't think I needed the clutch and pressure plate because the car pulls well, but once I get it out I will see. I want to stop short of cracking the case, even though I have had bad 2nd gear synchros. If anyone else has any ideas please keep them coming.
I had a gearbox done two years ago, and between parts and labor (I took it out and apart myself) and it cost $1000. Would have been more if I hadn't had a good 2nd gear from another gearbox.

If you can live with the dead synchro... do.

And if you can't get original Alfa synchro rings and shift sleeves. There are inferior parts in the market. My previous gearbox overhaul lasted 100 miles. The moly coating flaked off.
 
#47 ·
"She got about a block or so away before we who stayed behind heard the very distinct sound of the engine winding up to redline, a shift, then winding up again."

Priceless! Sounds like she may be a chip off the old block. Can she repair the Alfa also?
Robert
 
#48 ·
Just for giggles, try resetting the adjustable rod to 136-138mm (ie: two or three turns longer) and see what that does for you.

If it brings it, you may have a worn throwout fork at either the spot where it pivots on the ball, the finger tips that ride the throwout bearing or both. Alternatively, the slave cylinder may not be correctly mounted in regard to where the circlips are.

Lengthening that rod a bit will give a telltail on any of those three. (providing of course you've completely and properly bled the system)
 
#52 · (Edited)
Time to pull trans

Well I definitely have a problem. No luck with new master cyl, but At least I got the pivot arm replaced. Im going to pull the trans and take a look at the throwout bearing and pressure plat etc. Got new master, slave and fex line for the hydralics, and new throwout bearing pilot bushing, and trans seals, also while Im at it I'll replace the gubi, driveshaft bearing and u joint. Im going to wait until I pull the trans to see if I need to do the pressure plate. If i Do I'll do a clutch job. I'll started a new thread in transmissions (Click here) I plan on taking lots of pictures. Wish me luck!
 
#53 ·
replacing clutch pedal shaft

Hello, I printed your photos, thanks! I cannot find the sourde "replacing the alfa clutch pedal shaft" I think this is where you found out how to move the housing, correct?
 
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