Ar 1308*09399* engine identification - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums

 
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post #1 of 15 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 03:47 AM Thread Starter
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Ar 1308*09399* engine identification

Hello.

I'd like to find out on which AR 1900 model was this engine: AR1308*09399*

Thank you.
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post #2 of 15 (permalink) Old 04-23-2017, 10:22 AM
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Buna ziua Vlad,

Probabil ca motorul vine de un 1900 Sprint sau super sprint din 1955.

Oricum, la Alfa nu este un numar de motor care corespunde cu un numar de sasiu. Mai degraba o secventa de numere de motoare corespunde cu o secventa de numere de sasiu.

Este de vanzare ?

Numai bine.

chris
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post #3 of 15 (permalink) Old 04-23-2017, 11:30 AM
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FWIW, this engine number is outside of the range listed in Fusi's book for any of the 1900 production cars (see this thread). So, it seems there is an information puzzle to be solved -- but some pieces may be missing still.

-Ruedi
'63 2600 Touring Spider (AR 191437, the car that started the 2000/2600 International Register, reassembly in progress)
ex-'65 2600 SZ (AR 856043, now a restomod in Austria)
Maintainer of a private 2600 SZ register (not the one in the Netherlands).
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post #4 of 15 (permalink) Old 04-23-2017, 12:14 PM
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Mata?

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
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post #5 of 15 (permalink) Old 04-23-2017, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DPeterson3 View Post
Mata?
According to p.350 of d'Amico & Tabucchi, enigine numbers for AR51 and AR52 Matta (1952-54) started with 1307*00001. They mention 1900, 1900 T.I and 1900 C Sprint (1951-54) had 1306 engines. Then, on p.375, they mention 1900 C Sprint engines for 1954-56 were numbered 1308*00701 to 1308*01600, and for the 2nd series 1956-58, 1900 C Sprint engines were numbered 1308*10002 to 1308*10601. So, asking what car engine 1308*09399 belongs to seems to be a really good question. I hope experts will chime in soon.

-Ruedi
'63 2600 Touring Spider (AR 191437, the car that started the 2000/2600 International Register, reassembly in progress)
ex-'65 2600 SZ (AR 856043, now a restomod in Austria)
Maintainer of a private 2600 SZ register (not the one in the Netherlands).
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post #6 of 15 (permalink) Old 04-23-2017, 05:28 PM
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There is no way of knowing what "model" of 1900 an engine came out of from just the engine number. Based on it's features I'd put 1308*09399 in 1955 or 1956. But because 1308 indicates only that it came in C chassis 1900's the model cannot be known. "C" chassis 1900's are the ones that went off to the different coach builders. This engine could have come out of a car that was bodied by a variety of companies. In terms of numbers, likely but not necessarily a Touring.

This particular engine has a very curious combinations of the features, all correct but the combination is interesting. The distributor on the carb side, the side oil pump, the single belt crank pulley, the second belt tensioner in the head and the cradle for the eccentric generator (oh, and 1600 valve cover nuts), suggest that maybe some parts have been changed (presumably during service over the past 60 plus years). A more comprehensive set of photos would help. 1900 engines had many changes along the way that don't fit into the numbering system. We even see a fair number of changes in the relatively short run of 1307 AR 51 and AR 52 (Matta) engines.

Dan

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post #7 of 15 (permalink) Old Yesterday, 08:03 AM
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In addition to the things Dan mentioned above -most of which I hadn't even noticed, the vacuum advance and the distributor cap look odd to me. I only see three lugs coming from the distributor cap but then I am used to looking at Two-Liter engines and I loaned my new copy of 'Millenove' to a good friend and have not gotten it back yet.

Mark
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post #8 of 15 (permalink) Old Yesterday, 08:16 AM
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I rebuilt a 102 Series 2000 Spider engine and it used a Marelli distributor without a vacuum advance. I was told that the 1900 and 2000 cast iron block engines share many parts, but that engine appears to have parts from later Alfas and the generator is not an Alfa generator. I have a rebuilt Marelli generator for a 102 2000 engine.
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post #9 of 15 (permalink) Old Yesterday, 09:13 AM
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1900 engine

Hi John,

A Marelli generator from a CI 2000 will not fit the cradle style block intended for a eccentric generator.

We had 4 or 5 distributors on 1900's. The photo is not great but the one on this engine appears to be Scintilla. Many early 1900's got this distributor before Bosch bought the company in 1954. A low profile cap is correct. As is the vacuum advance. The vacuum advance on a 1900 is very common, including on Bosch and Marelli distributor models (4 out of 5 in the attached photo have a vacuum unit). It is unusual to see a Scintilla distributor on a 1900 motor because they have often been replaced, tune up parts are very difficult to find.

There is some cross over between 1900 and CI 2000 engines but it is the exception, not the rule. As indicated above, even within the 1900 family of engines there are many changes and parts don't necessarily interchange.

Dan
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post #10 of 15 (permalink) Old Yesterday, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elsonite View Post
The vacuum advance on a 1900 is very common, including on Bosch and Marelli distributor models (4 out of 5 in the attached photo have a vacuum unit).
Also interesting to see that the one without vacuum advance has the gear cut the other way around.

-Ruedi
'63 2600 Touring Spider (AR 191437, the car that started the 2000/2600 International Register, reassembly in progress)
ex-'65 2600 SZ (AR 856043, now a restomod in Austria)
Maintainer of a private 2600 SZ register (not the one in the Netherlands).
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post #11 of 15 (permalink) Old Yesterday, 12:02 PM
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1900 distributors were driven sometimes by the intake cam, sometimes the exhaust cam, mostly depending on space in the engine bay. The distributor was the same, the drive was side specific.

Dan

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post #12 of 15 (permalink) Old Yesterday, 12:24 PM
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Hi All,


the engine cast is a 54-55 and the cilinderhead is from 56 tipo with outside chain tensinoner !!

The 8 in 1308 is not an original 8

I think this was original an 1306 cast from berlina 1954


rgds Franco
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post #13 of 15 (permalink) Old Yesterday, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by franco-veloce View Post
The 8 in 1308 is not an original 8

I think this was original an 1306 cast from berlina 1954
Aah, yes, you might be right. Comparing it to the type faces Alfa used at the time, the 8 on the engine looks strange indeed.

-Ruedi
'63 2600 Touring Spider (AR 191437, the car that started the 2000/2600 International Register, reassembly in progress)
ex-'65 2600 SZ (AR 856043, now a restomod in Austria)
Maintainer of a private 2600 SZ register (not the one in the Netherlands).
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post #14 of 15 (permalink) Old Today, 01:28 AM
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1308 engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by tubut View Post
Aah, yes, you might be right. Comparing it to the type faces Alfa used at the time, the 8 on the engine looks strange indeed.
Hi all,
Frank, you are right. Please have a look in my book Millenove on page 26. There the original eight is to be seen, it is not symmetrical!

best regards
Jürgen Döhren
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post #15 of 15 (permalink) Old Today, 01:50 AM Thread Starter
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Hello Mr. Dohren.

A friend of mine has your book, the Millenove. I looked on page 32, where it is clear that the number 8 is not symmetrically written. Many thanks for your help you guys. The engine is on sale in Italy, so keep in mind these 3 photos !

Regards,

Vlad
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