Alfa 1900 Css tipo 3 1955 color codes Rosso wanted - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums

 
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post #1 of 15 (permalink) Old 03-19-2017, 02:06 PM Thread Starter
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Alfa 1900 Css tipo 3 1955 color codes Rosso wanted

Hi all,
I know a lot has been said on alfa paint colors.....
After spending many years restoring my 1900 CSS tipo 3 1955, I am finally coming to the point where I have to decide on the paint color.
As my car was originally painted 'Rosso' (acc Elvira Ruocco) I have decided it should again be painted 'Rosso'
That sounds easier than it is. Alfa has used many different variations of red. Some are mentioned in the wonderful 1900 books, and many things have been said about colors in this bb.
Quite often a color is mentioned but the paint-code is missing.....

So, is there anybody out there that knows which color (hopefully with the correct paint-code) was used by Touring on the tipo 3 or Alfa in the year 1955?
I have found the following:
Rosso 501-1290
Rosso 289
Rosso Amaranto 308
Rosso Amaranto 509
Rosso Amaranto 515-1250
Rosso Rubino 507

Any kind of help is appreciated,
Mike
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post #2 of 15 (permalink) Old 03-20-2017, 04:23 PM
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Hi ,

my 1900css tipo 4 from 1956 is original MATADOR RED

rgds Franco
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post #3 of 15 (permalink) Old 03-20-2017, 07:36 PM
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In his book "Millenove", Jurgen Dohren lists only the following four Rosso paint colors for the 1900 "Touring Coupe 3 serie". There is a mention on page 310 that a customer could order any color they desired.

Rosso
Rosso Alfa
Rosso Matador
Rosso California

I could find no paint codes or formulas.

Mark
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post #4 of 15 (permalink) Old 03-21-2017, 12:46 AM Thread Starter
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Thank you both Franco and Mark for your input.
As Mark says, finding a color is sometimes quite easy, but finding the correct code that belongs to it proves to be very difficult.
Specially because so many color 'names' have been used for very long periods.
The name stayed, but the code changed with the introduction of a new model or new year.
I am just hoping that someone maybe has a list of color-codes used in 1955.
Thanks Mike
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post #5 of 15 (permalink) Old 03-21-2017, 05:00 PM
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Hi All,


The paint codes or formulas from the years 50 and 60 ties are not in the todays color mixing system of the paint suppliers.

so the only way to get the original color is to scan from an old original colored part and make a new code or formula for the old color .


rgds Franco
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post #6 of 15 (permalink) Old 03-22-2017, 08:05 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks Franco,
I was hoping that many of those old colors had been re-made already, so the new formulas would be available.
I have no old paint on my car, I just know it came out of the shop as Red.
So my idea was to get a can of all the available red colors from that year and then decide on the best looking one for my car.
Probably it will be one of the darker ones, but then again not the dark-purple color.

I have seen many good looking cars on the alfa companion website but of course nobody mentions the color they used and getting in touch with them seems impossible.
Regards, Mike
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post #7 of 15 (permalink) Old 03-22-2017, 10:02 AM
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Mike,

There is a fantasy that one can walk into a paint vendor, give them a code, and get a can of something that will match the car that is being repaired. This NEVER happens. The bigger shops mix their own paint, specifically to allow their color expert to tweak the formula until it matches the car.

So, if you had the five codes in hand, and asked a paint store to mix a quart of each, it is a certainty that none of them would actually match the color that was on the car in 1955. Those five cans would probably cost you about $500, as well.

In your case, I recommend you get a copy of "Millenove", study the color photographs, pick one you like, take the book to your favorite paint vendor, and have them mix up the quantity you need. What you get will not exactly match the picture, but it'll be close.

Then, before you paint the car, pour all of the cans into a five gallon pail, stir it up, and redistribute the homogenized paint back into the original 1 gallon cans.

Paint is art, not science.

We've got a guy near me that runs a freelance operation doing paint matching and spot repair. My favorite local paint store doesn't even do matching anymore. They call Kelly to handle it as a subcontractor.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
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post #8 of 15 (permalink) Old 03-22-2017, 04:18 PM Thread Starter
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Hi Don,
Thanks for your reply.
Of course it is obvious you can not walk into a shop and buy a can of paint and expect that it will match to a car with 60 year old paint on it.
But in my case I don't have to match anything, it just has to be the correct color for the type of car.
If what you say is correct, that is where my search ends.
But it hard to believe that the bigger firms like Lechler or PPG never considered transferring those older paint mixtures into new formulas.
Apparently I still see paint as science.
Matching it to old paintwork, yes, that's art.
Mike
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post #9 of 15 (permalink) Old 03-22-2017, 04:43 PM
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Hi Mike,


I have some parts of my 1900css with the original old paint ( rosso matador ) on it.


rgds Franco
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post #10 of 15 (permalink) Old 03-22-2017, 07:17 PM
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Mike,

My point is that the formulas, even when mixed by modern compertized machines, will not produce perfectly identical colors every time. They'll be close, but not identical.

When painting an entire car, this does not matter. However, it is also why you mix all of your "identical" cans of paint before using them.

What you get will be close to what the factory specified, so long as the original specification was laid down within the last 20 years or so. Prior to that, it was all hand-measured, and the formulas no longer match the modern paint systems.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
DPeterson3 is online now  
post #11 of 15 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 12:55 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks Don and Franco, @Franco, privat mail has been sent!

Don, appreciate the bit of extra explanation.
I have contacted one of the paint-color-masters at PPG. He himself is frequently in contact with many of the car manufacturers in Northern Italy, he is confident that he will find out which paints were used during the production of my car.
And for almost every color there already is a new formula.
And of course, what you are saying is absolutely true, this new formula will be a close match, but never exactly the same.
Regards, Mike
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post #12 of 15 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 07:15 AM
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Mike,
There are a lot of Alfa Romeo cars in the Netherlands. We have friends in the Atlanta Alfa Club that used to "go home" to see a huge Alfa convention get together. Perhaps you could find a Rosso Series 3, 1900 and get to know the owner so that your color can be matched from their car. I guess that I have more 'faith' in good color matching equipment than average. In fact, the computer can usually reproduce colors closer than the average **** Sapiens see. Keep in mind that the primer color, under the paint, can have a huge effect on the paint color. Often yellow cars are painted white first, then yellow, to give them a creamy yellow color.

Here are a couple of links to Alfa paint colors that may help:

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourcei...0-1950-1968/&*

1959 101 Color Chart

Mark
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post #13 of 15 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 08:29 AM
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Mark,

You are correct that modern color marching systems are quite good. If one can find a smalll area of undamaged paint, you can get very, very close to it.

What remains a joke is taking a paint manufacturer's formula and expecting it to closely match. This can be seen in the many wild variations produced of Grigio Biacca posted on this BB.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
DPeterson3 is online now  
post #14 of 15 (permalink) Old 04-03-2017, 10:33 AM
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Hi Mike,
My car is rosso Matador AR 504.
On my car there are some parts with original color.It's orrible(my personal opinion) because it isn't a normal Italian red(like rosso alfa) but has in formula more orange.Also on another Css '56 never restored i saw same color
Glasurit Rosso Matador (Ar 504 U3*05*14.00) is a fantastic red(I did make a sample) but very different from original:more red than orange.
Lechler Rosso matador Ar 504 is more similar to the original color and is, in my opinion, the right balance.
I also found the exact color, it's RM but with a totally different code.
Here you can have an idea about Rosso Matador and its orange effect
10437

The only way to have the correct color is by a scan fotometro.

Last edited by GIGI 1750; 04-03-2017 at 10:39 AM.
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post #15 of 15 (permalink) Old 04-04-2017, 03:27 AM Thread Starter
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Hi all,
Thank you for sharing your knowledge about the paint industry!
Not as simple as I thought it would be, it proves just to be the next challenge in getting the car back on the road as original as possible.
Since there is no original color my car, scanning is not an option.
I will probably get a few samples of Glasurit and Lechler.
And also thanks to h.j. döhren who gave me the formula that he used on his 01510 PininFarina, a great looking car!
Mike
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