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post #1 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-10-2017, 03:31 PM Thread Starter
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AR 1900 CSS camshaft

Hi All,

We are going to make NEW reproductions of the 1900 CSS / TI camshaft

in standard CSS / TI original lobe lift and duration or new design lobe lift and duration :

high torque low revs or high power in high revs .

is someone interested ?

rgds Franco
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post #2 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-10-2017, 11:40 PM
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Cam shafts

Hello Franco.
I am interested in the low rev torque ones.
How much would it cost ?
Best wishes.

Philippe
58 Spider V, 61 SZ, 62 Sprint, 62 SS, 1900 CSS 56
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post #3 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-11-2017, 11:55 AM
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Yes, I am interested also.

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post #4 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-13-2017, 01:45 PM Thread Starter
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Hi All,

FYI

At this moment :

we are designing the lobe and lift for high torque low revs

we do not have cams and prices.


manufacturing and testing will take at least 5-6 month


rgds Franco
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post #5 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-13-2017, 05:42 PM
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To all...

I am using a pair of cams designed by Richard Jemison on my FNM 2300. This engine is quite similar to the original 2000 from which it is derived. Using JR's design, I have kept 100%, or more, of the original low-rpm torque while gaining quite an improvement from about 4,000 through redline near 7,000 RPM. The engine is using 45DCOE carbs, with a matched OKP manifold, but otherwise, the engine is essentially stock configuration.

I would suggest that these cams accomplish both increased power up high, and very strong torque down low. Why give up anything?

The first graph was with stock cams and using 40DCOM carbs. The second graph has the same info as the first, overlaid with the modified engine using the RJR cams and 45DCOE carbs. We limited the revs on the second runs, which means the total horsepower reported is less than what would have been produced at redline. Even so, the engine gained slightly more than 20 hp. This was the first run with this configuration, and additional jetting and spark timing research is going forward now. Note that the torque with the modified cams is slightly HIGHER at low RPMs than the stock cam profile.
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Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...

Last edited by DPeterson3; 03-13-2017 at 05:47 PM.
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post #6 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-05-2017, 02:37 PM Thread Starter
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Hi All,

We now can make these in very good quality , much better then the original cast in modern 2017 quality.

prices for these are eu 1000,- each

we can make lobe design :

original TI

alfa 105 serie ( 2000 GTV , 2000 spider veloce years 1970-1977 )

RJR design High Torque as used in Don 2300 engine


rgds Franco
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post #7 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-05-2017, 11:49 PM
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I confirm my interest.

Would you recommend Don's RJR design for my 1900 CSS (tipo 4) ?
rdgs
Philippe

Philippe
58 Spider V, 61 SZ, 62 Sprint, 62 SS, 1900 CSS 56
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post #8 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-06-2017, 05:49 AM
Richard Jemison
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Copying my cam designs?

Why would you want to pay some unknown for building cams?

If you want my designs, done correctly using modern metallurgy (stellite alloy), not common iron billet, it`s as simple as sending your cores to me, and having them done.
(These are NOT regrinds FYI)

Cost is only $550. per PAIR of any of my lobes you might want done with any BC you want done to accommodate engine build changes.

Shipping is location dependent. Typically back to Europe $85 to $90 USD.

I`m seriously doubting these "copiers" have less than a clue about advising customers on cam timing, lash, and BCs to use with different lift cam lobes, with lobes they don`t have masters for or other tuning assistance.

If this seller ask for $ before having them to sale, best investigate other customer`s experience with their product & service. What history do they have in the cam business? And what do they know about cam design?

Best ask!

Richard Jemison
RJR Racing

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Last edited by Alfar7; 04-06-2017 at 05:53 AM.
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post #9 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-06-2017, 06:33 AM
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Franco has been selling products here for years and has a steller reputation!

And better, his may actually be from new billets, not welded from old high mile cores.....

'64 Guilia Spider
'67 GTV
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post #10 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-06-2017, 09:05 AM
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While Franco is an established and reliable vendor, Richard has good points. At the risk of rubbing someone's fur backward, I suggest the optimum approach might be a collaboration. No one, including Richard, is a highly experienced performance expert on the 1900 and 2000 cast iron engines. Richard's developmental work on cams is superb. Franco almost certainly has more familiarity with the 1900 and 2000 valve and valve gear configurations. Working together would help avoid some of the challenges I faced with my engine.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
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post #11 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-06-2017, 03:33 PM
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Ohhh.........

Quote:
Working together would help avoid some of the challenges I faced with my engine.
Don, you should confess your misdemeanor, in the cam build.....

Richard Jemison
RJR Racing

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post #12 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-06-2017, 06:55 PM
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To Richard and others, since he brought it up. I don't know why, since I've been playing very nicely, and my post above was strictly to help all concerned, and encouraging of using Richard's product.

I wanted to improve the operation of my FNM engine. There is next to no local knowledge of the FNM, but it is primarily a bored and stroked cast iron 2000.

I contacted Richard and asked if he had done cams for the old 2000. He said yes. This led me to make the assumption that he had, in fact, done cams for the old 2000, and had detailed knowledge of them. I looked over the 2300 head, and it appeared to be the same as the 2000 head. It is in many respects, but not the same in others. I did not spot that the 2300 no longer used the large diameter 2000 cam buckets, but uses the regular buckets found on the "Nord" engines. For those of you that have had your hands in a 2000, you'll recall that the cam lobes are very wide. The tappets are wide enough to be happy with this.

I accepted Richard's recommendation on cam grinds (different intake and exhaust), and sent two 2000 cams down to be reworked. I had always noticed that the FNM cam lobes are narrower than the 2000, but the reason was not yet apparent. As it turns out, there are also some overall length differences between 2000 and 2300 cams, but this is easily surmountable.

When I received the reworked cams they would not work with the smaller tappets in the FNM head. Richard's guidance was to use a grinder to narrow the cam lobes. I worked on them for awhile, and decided it was going nowhere, and would end badly. So, I picked up the conversation with Richard again in order to decide if I was better off with a total rework of the cams to suit the smaller tappets, and/or possibly notching the tappet bores, or to switch to a 2000 head I had, and have it reworked to be compatible with the wide lobes on the RJR reworked 2000 cams. My efforts to find out if Richard had done the calculations necessary to ensure it would work with the original 2000 tappet diameter turned up the info that he had not, in fact, ever done cams for the old 2000. As I attempted to find out what calculations he had done to help me decide whether to stay with the FNM head or switch over to the wide-tappet 2000 head, Richard became quite agitated, used a variety of unpleasant terms, and threatened to tell the cam grind shop (Webcam) to cancel my order. Fortunately, the ladies at Webcam were entirely pleasant and professional, and we moved past the contretemps and got my job done without further involvement from Richard.

In the end, it required an extreme reduction in the base circle, and fairly narrow lobes. It also required having custom extra-thick shims made to deal with the reduced base circle. In hindsight, if Richard had been willing to just answer my questions about calculations, I think I would have preferred to build up my spare 2000 head with the wider tappets. Regrettably, there was no option in proceeding with him at that point. At no time did I ask for money back, I only wanted info to make a decision on which direction to go to get my job done. The help was no longer available.

As I've consistently stated since then, I think Richard knows his business with cam lobe designs. It appears he is not all that familiar with the 2000, and perhaps even less so with the 1900, which uses a peculiar lash adjustment method. I have no idea what the traps might be in fitting higher lift cams into a 1900 head, including limits on lift constrained by the adjustment system. I do not know if he has done calculations based upon the specifics of the 2000, or whether those might fit the needs of the 1900 buckets.

The net of this is that I can wholeheartedly recommend Richard's contribution on cam design. Some care must be taken to be sure there are no surprises, as that may not be his strength. Given that the 1900 also has a variety of interesting carb options, the total formula may need the input of several knowledgeable people.

I'm at peace. I'm not sure why Richard wanted this aired, but to the extent it might help others identify gotchas ahead of time, perhaps it will help.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
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post #13 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-07-2017, 06:25 AM
Richard Jemison
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Just to be clear

Not airing difficulties, but to summarize, Don sent cams that absolutely were not for the engine . Not base circles lengths, or lobe design. We build cams, and we built correct lobe designs on his cores.
All he saw fit to do was blame me for them not fitting, and refused the simple fix.

The work done at WenCam was exactly what I told them to do, and that he could have done himself.

He was quite belligerant, which just doesn`t work with me.

I don`t need a "consultant" to build proper fitting cams for ANY Alfa (or, Mercedes, or Nissan/Datsun etc.) engine. But don`t send us cores for the wrong motor.

Richard Jemison
RJR Racing

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post #14 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-07-2017, 08:39 AM
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Hind sight is always 20/20. It would have been a good idea to put the Two-Liter cams into the 2300 Rio's head and spin them to be sure that they cleared all obstacles and turned freely. Don just said he faced challenges with his engine and that happens when you are an engine pioneer. How would or do the RJR cams work in the Two-Liter head?

I am thankful that Franco offers so many quality reproduction parts to the Alfa community.

I am also thankful that RJR offers his knowledge and experience to the Alfa community.

If I need cams I like having options...

Mark

Last edited by IRONBLOCK; 04-07-2017 at 08:44 AM.
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post #15 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-07-2017, 10:34 AM
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2-liter head

Quote:
Originally Posted by IRONBLOCK View Post
Hind sight is always 20/20. It would have been a good idea to put the Two-Liter cams into the 2300 Rio's head and spin them to be sure that they cleared all obstacles and turned freely. Don just said he faced challenges with his engine and that happens when you are an engine pioneer. How would or do the RJR cams work in the Two-Liter head?

I am thankful that Franco offers so many quality reproduction parts to the Alfa community.

I am also thankful that RJR offers his knowledge and experience to the Alfa community.

If I need cams I like having options...

Mark
Mark,

I discovered a few of the differences between the unknown-in-the-US FNM head and the relatively well known 102/2000. There may be more. Pioneering brings unexpected new knowledge, doesn't it?

For instance, I can't tell you whether the port shapes and diameters are identical. The 102 head was derived from the 1900. Some of the 1900's used a single carb, and some used two 2-barrel carbs. My suspicion is that the 102 head simply used the basic 1900 molds, and did what they did to put it into the 102 chassis with the PHHs. But, I fully acknowledge that assumptions can create unfortunate surprises.

The first FNM 2000s started out as identical to the sedan version of the 102. Then, they increased the stroke to 2150cc, then bored that (via changing to wet sleeves) to get 2300 cc. Thus, I suspect (there is that word again) that the FNM port shape, valve seat configuration, and other elements are mostly the same as the 2000. I know that the FNM 2300 dropped the tappet diameter back down to use 105 buckets. This was probably just a cost-containment move. They continued using 10mm valve stems, but have a 9mm collett area allowing the use of modern 9mm shims.

The bearing journals for the 1900, 2000, and 2300 are the same. All of the gears, adjusters, etc are the same for the 2000 and 2300. The FNM made some changes at the rear of the head, resulting in the cams needing to be shorter. This is the least concerning of the issues. The 102 and FNM cams can be used in the opposite head, so long as the adjustments are made to allow it. For instance, the 102 and FNM intake cams have different lengths, so one must use the distributor drive gear intended for that cam.

This thread is about the 1900 and making improved cams available. I like the results of the cams that Richard specified. It suits my use of the car. Very, very driveable around town, but a bunch more torque and a much flatter torque band across a wider range of RPMs, resulting in a nice improvement at highway speeds.

If the ports are much the same as the FNM/2000, I can't see why the same cams wouldn't work in a 1900. I mentioned the different carbs used on 1900s, as that may change Richard's recommendations, but one should contact him directly, if interested.

The issue of tappet diameter favors the 102/1900 head, in that greater lift and a wider lobe can be used, if desired. Again, contact Richard for guidance. I know next to nothing about the 1900 threaded-valve clearance adjusting system, so also don't know what, if any, limits this might pose on increased lift.

Richard specified, I think, 104 degree lobe centers for my cams. Don't quote me on that. I've got the documentation buried in my files. I assembled my RJR cams with the stock lobe centers to get the car working. Richard posted once that changing to 104 would deliver more improvement. At some point I'll go back in and confirm my centers, and try 104, if that's not what they already are. There are other priorities in my life at the moment.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
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