AR 102 seri exhaust valves sodium filled - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums

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post #1 of 12 (permalink) Old 02-27-2017, 03:59 PM Thread Starter
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AR 102 seri exhaust valves sodium filled

Hi All,

someone told me that the original AR 102 seri exhaust valves are sodium filled for better cooling .

can someone confirm ?


rgds Franco
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post #2 of 12 (permalink) Old 02-27-2017, 04:12 PM
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Hi Franco,

I am pretty sure that was the case with my 1974 2000 Spider and many others. Don't know about the Ironblock valves though?

Mark
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post #3 of 12 (permalink) Old 02-27-2017, 04:56 PM
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AFAIK, the 1600 and 2600 engines were the first Alfa production engines with sodium valves, as per the 3rd paragraph in TSB 1.05.016 dated 08-Jun-1963.

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-Ruedi
'63 2600 Touring Spider (AR 191437, the car that started the 2000/2600 International Register, reassembly in progress)
ex-'65 2600 SZ (AR 856043, now a restomod in Austria)
Maintainer of a private 2600 SZ register (not the one in the Netherlands).
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post #4 of 12 (permalink) Old 02-28-2017, 08:04 AM
Richard Jemison
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Sodium filled valves

You don`t want them!
Easy to break the heads off, and new alloy valves take heat far better!

Richard Jemison
RJR Racing

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post #5 of 12 (permalink) Old 02-28-2017, 09:07 AM
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Richard has this right. My 1300 101 Veloce race car ran 1300 TI police sodium cooled exhaust valves without high rpm issue. SMALL valves. Originally all the GTA exhaust valves were sodium cooled, larger valves. The heads snapped off these regularly at high rpm. We switched to early stainless steel when they became available and breakage stopped EXCEPT if the {Valve breaker) 11 mm GTA cams were used. These could snap off SS intake or exhaust valve heads.
They only were used part of one race season and were a bad idea.
Richard had one from Ausca, which he sold me. It has been reground by Webcam to a non-valve-breaker profile at 10.6 lift.
A sodium cooled exhaust valve remains on my desk as a paperweight as a reminder.
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Gordon Raymond
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post #6 of 12 (permalink) Old 02-28-2017, 01:19 PM
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Several years ago I spent a bunch of time overhauling several French Renault aircraft engines (like in the yellow biplane). The engine design dated to the early 30's, but remained in production through the 50's, and perhaps even longer in some form. A crude engine in many ways, with a hollow crankshaft that required large bolted-in plugs for the journals, used aluminum connecting rods, and a nearly 4" bore. I'd done many Alfa engines prior to these, so was familiar with sodium cooled valves. At least I thought I was. The French valves had a big round dome for a head, different than anything that I'd seen before.

Anyway, a couple of the heads had stuck valves and other trauma. I decided the only way to get some of the exhaust valves out were to cut off the tips of the stems. I did this near the slop sink in my shop. The valves came out into the sink as hoped, where I let them lay while I cleaned up. This included washing my hands, which resulted in water going down into the unnoticed hollow cores of the valves.

It got very exciting, with a display not unlike that of a well rehearsed July 4th.
Alex and Gordon Raymond like this.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
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post #7 of 12 (permalink) Old 02-28-2017, 02:20 PM
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When sodium valve heads snap off in a race engine on the track, you can watch an unusual orange cloud of smoke from the exhaust if the whole thing does not come apart.


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Gordon Raymond
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post #8 of 12 (permalink) Old 02-28-2017, 03:04 PM
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My first experience with sodium was as the tragically under-supervised lab assistant for my high school physics classes. This job included access to the photography darkroom, which was the only room in the school that could be locked from the inside. Calcium carbonate was fun, too.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
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post #9 of 12 (permalink) Old 02-28-2017, 04:10 PM Thread Starter
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Hi All,


I bought some years ago 102 seri valves from AlfaBOB in the USA

are these good quality and have someone experience with the valves from alfabob ?

I have also bought some original old NOS ATE valves in Italy

and the question is which valves I am using in my to rebuilt cilinderhead ?

@ Don are the exhaust valves in the 2300FNM RIO engine sodium filled ???



Rgds Franco
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post #10 of 12 (permalink) Old 02-28-2017, 06:05 PM
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Franco,

I don't recall if the FNM valves are sodium. Mine were in very good shape, so we just popped in new guides, ground the valves, and carried on. They have the same stem and head diameters as the 102, but a smaller diameter top which accepts the 9mm shims.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
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post #11 of 12 (permalink) Old 02-28-2017, 06:12 PM
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Don


Interesting point on the FNM valves. My head is at the machine shop and they are looking into options to move away from the 10mm valve shims. Does this mean that I could use the FNM valves and the 9mm shims? What am I missing because that seems like a pretty simple route.

Thanks...Dan
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post #12 of 12 (permalink) Old 02-28-2017, 06:18 PM
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Dan,

I have no idea where to get new FNM valves. Although they use the 9mm shims and 10mm stem, the spring retainers and locks are unique, and not the same as the 102. I understand Jay has converted his engines to use 9mm shims, but I can't give you the specifics. His posts usually say something like "any machine shop worth it's salt...", and hope the reader can follow that lead.

Franco... I have some new 102 valves out in the shop. I'll take a look to see if they are sodium or not.

I know that my Mooney aircraft engine uses a sodium exhaust, but these are certainly not high RPM engines. Maybe being air cooled argues for better heat transfer from the valves?

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
DPeterson3 is offline  
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