more performance for the 2600, how? - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #1 of 47 (permalink) Old 11-02-2016, 01:58 PM Thread Starter
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more performance for the 2600, how?

New 2600 owner Jim Hull wants more power and performance from his first Alfa. His letter to Keith ("I've followed in your footsteps...") with a photo of the car is in the current issue of Sports Car Market (the yellow Iso Grifo on the cover).
I don't know if Jim is on the BB, but if he is, what should he be told?

Thanks.
Richard
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post #2 of 47 (permalink) Old 11-02-2016, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skinthin View Post
New 2600 owner Jim Hull wants more power and performance from his first Alfa. [snip] what should he be told?
He bought the wrong car. 2600s were not about performance but about comfortable rides over long distances at what was relatively high speed (50-80 mph) when they were built (and Autostradas came into existence). However, these cars will never be nimble or fast acting -- or great for hill climbs.

I presume some horsepower (I would guess 15-20 HP with some tuning) can be added -- possibly by switching cams to the ones Richard Jemison makes with 1750 profiles, as well as converting the intake manifold and carbs to Weber 40s (or EFI), resulting in a noticeable but not dramatic change, but their bodies are simply too heavy and, IMO, the suspension derived from the 1900 design from about 1950 was already outdated when 2600s came to market.

Still, if one appreciates the character and legacy of the last straight-six Alfa built, and the fact that the cars feel like driving 50 mph when one only drives 30 mph (rather than the other way around), these cars certainly provide an interesting driving experience and deserve some respect -- the same way an elephant deserves respect for not being a lion or a gazelle.
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-Ruedi
'63 2600 Touring Spider (AR 191437, the car that started the 2000/2600 International Register, reassembly in progress)
ex-'65 2600 SZ (AR 856043, now a restomod in Austria)
Maintainer of a private 2600 SZ register (not the one in the Netherlands).
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post #3 of 47 (permalink) Old 11-03-2016, 11:18 AM
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A data point...

My very similar 2000 feels like it is doing 25, when it is, in fact, doing 41. So claimed the officer standing next to my door one bright sunny morning.

A very slight addition to Tubut's note.

My 1959 2000 model currently has about the same or more horsepower as the 2600. It is a somewhat lighter car as well. I very much appreciate having the extra power for otherwise sedate touring, as it allows us to get up and down the local mountains with dispatch, and to overtake and pass when on winding 2-lane roads behind a logging truck or geriatric site-seer. I think the 2600 would reward you for adding that 20-ish HP.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
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post #4 of 47 (permalink) Old 11-03-2016, 04:42 PM
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Hi All,

tuning the 2600 engine

using hotter cams JR , 1750, 2000 105 seri design ,high compression pistons , weber carbs 40 or 45 and original weber or desiamised solex inlet and 123TUNE ignition will give this 2600 engine >200HP

rgds Franco
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post #5 of 47 (permalink) Old 11-09-2016, 07:03 PM
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Hi, Franco!
I'm on my way to these upgrades to my 2600 engine with the Webers and manifold modifications. Regarding the cam changes, do you know how much additional valve lift the stock piston will accept, compared to the stock cam profile? (i.e. how much additional lift would the 1750 cam give over the stock 2600, and is that profile the best for the stock 2600 piston?)
Thanks!
JIM
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post #6 of 47 (permalink) Old 11-12-2016, 01:00 PM
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Hello Franco,
In addition to Malibujim's question, what value of compression ratio You think possible to reach usine standard gasoline fuel?
Thanks,
Xavier
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post #7 of 47 (permalink) Old 11-13-2016, 09:24 AM
Richard Jemison
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Clairification on Cams

The cams I build for both the 2600 and 2000 (102) engines have the same lobe designs. The description and lobe data is in this old posting and gives the cam specs as well as the factory cam`s lobe specs for comparison. These are high Torque/hp street cams that fit with no head modifications.
2600 Performance Cams For Sale

Richard Jemison
RJR Racing

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post #8 of 47 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 07:59 AM
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Tubut...maybe a water buffalo would be better comparison than an elephant. Lancia boys might take exception too. Wasn't the big deal wisdom in the day to convert the common plenum for the Solex's and the intake to Webers with individual intake runners? Seem to recall it was unobtanium and a must have item by Zat. Joe Benson always respected these cars and still does for what they are. He won't chime in but can be found hunkered down in the Detroit burbs. It might be interesting to get his input for those who are in pursuit of more responsiveness which unfortunately doesn't necessarily correspond to more power. This comment is not at all meant to disparage RJ's efforts to build better cams. I have no skin in this game... just musing.

Last edited by divotandtralee; 11-14-2016 at 08:13 AM.
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post #9 of 47 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 11:20 AM
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I've documented my work with the similar 102/2000 elsewhere. I'm happy that I've found a sweet spot with this car between power, handling, and comfortable touring. This car remained stuck to my tail during a very spirited run up Highway 50 from California to Lake Tahoe being driven by a partially deranged 19 year old red-headed English kid. I was driving a modified Montreal, and was following a 6.3 AMG trying desperately to run away from us. I would not have guessed that a Touring 2000 (much extra power) would have kept up with us. In spite of the Montreal's Alfaholics' fast-road handling kit, I was on the ragged edge of white knuckles during this drive.

The front end of the 2000 is lighter than the 2600. This is in an area where small amounts of additional weight will have an outsized impact on handling. My 2000 has a bone-stock suspension, but with Red Konis. These make a world of difference in handling without impacting the touring-car ride that is really the point of these cars. I suspect a 2600 would need more help in the suspension to make the same improvement in handling, and that any of these mods would be likely to make the ride excessively harsh, thus spoiling its GT ride. I would cheer anyone successfully proving me wrong.

If the car is used purely as a GT, then a little extra power for the 2600 would be nice just for passing. Otherwise, probably not going to add much to the experience.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
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post #10 of 47 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 12:31 PM
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Don, with due respect, how does one identify 102/2000's in the same breath with 2600's as if they are one and the same? Sorry you got me on that.
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post #11 of 47 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 02:15 PM
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2600 engine experience

I am happy with my 2600 engine experience , if I can run at 110mph with a 4C and outdrag most modern standard saloons on a long hill something must be right. Last test was 180 BHP at 6,000 rpm. See Alfa 2600 Veloce.

However, the 2600 sprint or spider is totally the wrong car/chassis for this engine , it is a 1950's design with the engine over the front axle. It was known as the best truck alfa ever built and it doesn't matter how much power you put in it it will still be out cornered by a well driven modern delivery van.

If you want a performance classic alfa, put a tuned V6 in a bertone GTV chassis and add all the performance suspension mods , LSD etc developed for the racing GTA's. My old 500 dollar GTV had 132 BHP , drove beautifully and was just fun. The 2600 Spider is not fun except in a straight line.

Thats before you get to the fact that the 2600's are real classics now with price tags up to $150,000 and should not be abused . Best returned to original spec with a few unseen mods like Don has done.

N.B if you still want go on I have a weber , manifold , original 45s etc . Drop me a pm. Photo is my current triple dellorto setup soon to be returned to stock Solex's to add value to my classic! I have lived the performance 2600 dream and come out the other side.
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post #12 of 47 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redmerlin View Post
I have lived the performance 2600 dream and come out the other side.
Well said! Funny how maturity does that to you.

Jay Mackro
San Juan Capistrano, CA

'63 Guilia spider
'65 Guilia Sprint GT
'67 Duetto
'91 164L
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post #13 of 47 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by divotandtralee View Post
Don, with due respect, how does one identify 102/2000's in the same breath with 2600's as if they are one and the same? Sorry you got me on that.
Because 102 and 106 Sprint/Spider are essentially the same cars, as evidenced by many parts in the 2600 parts catalog with 102 prefixes. The front and rear suspension (in fact the whole rear axle) are identical. Differences are the engines (duh!) and cosmetic upgrades in response to market demand (front disc brakes on all 106 cars and bigger trunk on the Spider).
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-Ruedi
'63 2600 Touring Spider (AR 191437, the car that started the 2000/2600 International Register, reassembly in progress)
ex-'65 2600 SZ (AR 856043, now a restomod in Austria)
Maintainer of a private 2600 SZ register (not the one in the Netherlands).
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post #14 of 47 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 09:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tubut View Post
Because 102 and 106 Sprint/Spider are essentially the same cars, as evidenced by many parts in the 2600 parts catalog with 102 prefixes. The front and rear suspension (in fact the whole rear axle) are identical. Differences are the engines (duh!) and cosmetic upgrades in response to market demand (front disc brakes on all 106 cars and bigger trunk on the Spider).
I was about to reply, but you beat me to it.

The point of my post was that the 2000 can be made to have a more sporting nature than it was born with. BTW, I forgot to mention mine having modern tires, which is probably significant.

My larger point was, that since the 102/2000 and 106/2600 are very nearly the same car, the 100+/- extra pounds on the front wheels probably means the 2600 is best left in the GT duty rather that pushed toward sports car.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
DPeterson3 is online now  
post #15 of 47 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 10:17 PM
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I watched a 2600 Spider do some laps of Pukekohe race track (in New Zealand) once. Might have actually been a race? ... it was like a beached whale and was so slow it was embarrassing. It just looked completely out of place.

It is hard for me to say this, but some Alfa Romeos were not actually designed to have any intentions at all of sportiness, and the 2600 is the most unsporty of them all.

I'll go as far to say, even if I was rich, I'd never own one ... but maybe when on the other side of 70 I might change my mind
Pete

'71 1750 Series 2 GTV:
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