New production air plenum to suit OKP "Conrero" manifold - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums

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post #1 of 48 (permalink) Old 08-29-2016, 11:50 AM Thread Starter
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New production air plenum to suit OKP "Conrero" manifold

Some of you will be familiar with my efforts to build up a fun FNM2300 engine in my 59 Touring. The latest work includes use of the OKP/Conrero manifold, which makes Weber installation much neater than modifying an original siamesed Solex manifold. The downside of the OKP manifold is that it tilts the Webers upward (as the Weber factory recommends), making it impossible to use the original air intake plenum via the further use of gender-menders to fit it to the Weber carbs. The performance with K&N filter canisters has been completely acceptable, but I often hear rumbles about people preferring a more original look, if possible.

OK.

I am working with a company to fabricate an air plenum in glass fiber using a mold from the original, but with Weber-oriented flanges, and with the overall height reduced to clear the closed hood. We intend that the front air inlet would be in its original place allowing the original rubber hose to connect it to the original air cleaner. This would allow a very easy conversion, with little to no scrounging for solutions.

Would any of you be interested? There is work to be done, but it is already started. Needless to say, the final cost would be directly related to the size of the production run.

The company doing the work is already in the business of fabricating fiberglass air inlet plenums, so we're not reinventing the wheel.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
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post #2 of 48 (permalink) Old 08-29-2016, 12:03 PM
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Hello Don,

Just to understand : Why do you say that OKP/Conrero manifold makes Weber installation much neater than modifying an original siamesed Solex manifold ?

From my point of few (but I have only the 2600 weber adaptation as an experience) disiamesed a manifold is quite easy to do.
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post #3 of 48 (permalink) Old 08-29-2016, 12:53 PM Thread Starter
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I suppose "neater" is a subjective observation, but since you asked....

Webers are intended to be mounted in a slight incline. Frankly, I believe the Solex carbs should have been as well, as you will probably note the fuel that drips out of the inlets, falls onto the structure under it, and over time leads to corrosion. However, ignoring that...

De-siamising the original manifold has gotten a lot of discussion. Jay has offered his experience that cutting a slit and welding in a plate makes the Webers work acceptably well. However, this involves removing the manifold, making the cut, welding, repainting, etc. The OKP manifold simply bolts into place.

The de-siamesed manifold still has a convoluted air path for the fuel-air mixture. The OKP manifold is much like the more modern 105/115 units in having a straight, unobstructed air flow from carburetor to intake port. Also, the Solex manifold is heated by coolant water. The OKP is not. The combination of convoluted airflow and heating must certainly reduce the possible power gain.

The Solex manifold requires one to synchronize the two carbs by diddling with the transfer rods coming down from the rotating throttle drive shaft. This can be tedious. The OKP manifold spaces the carbs identical to the later 105 cars, so you can use the linked linkages in the middle with a single synchronizing screw.

The OKP manifold provides a vacuum outlet port at the rear if someone wants to install a vacuum brake booster. Do you know anyone who might be installing a vacuum brake booster on a 102?

The OKP manifold uses standard 105 40mm or 45mm rubber isolators rather than the goofy 44mm ones that you can't get, except for ones that don't fit worth a darn.

So, "neater" really applies to things other than appearance. I see it primarily as being technically superior, and capable of delivering more power if set up for such gains.

There is work to do...

The throttle cable must be reconfigured. Very easy by using a Webcon top-mount cable linkage system.
A carb support rod must be fabricated lest you hang the carbs from their rubber isolators. Don't do that. Also not hard to do, and I'm hoping that the new plenum will simply accept the original support rod.
If you want, you can arrange a hot-water bypass from the water pump to the rear inlet. These parts originally provided hot water to the manifold, but are not needed with the OKP manifold. However, I decided that a constant circulation through the head was part of the original design, so why not retain it? Easy to do if you can bend aluminum tubing and fabricate an adapter fitting for the pump.

So.... Depends upon your goals. At this point, I have no interest in going back to the anemic 2000 cc engine with stock cams and Solex carbs. If I find myself having to pull out the 2300, then I'll drop in a 2000 with the OKP manifold. 45DCOEs, and hotter cams. I'd prefer to have an inlet plenum that retains an OE look, hence fabricating a modified plenum to suit.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
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post #4 of 48 (permalink) Old 08-29-2016, 03:23 PM
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Hi Don,

I am interested in air plenum in glass fiber

does it also fit on the original 2300 RIO alu inletcast ?

rgds Franco
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post #5 of 48 (permalink) Old 08-29-2016, 03:55 PM Thread Starter
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Franco,

I believe that Christian at OKP used the FNM manifold to create his "Conrero" unit. The castings are very close to identical, but OKP has rotated the inlet flanges to use the standard rubber isolators rather than the goofy ones that come only from Brazil. Maybe FNM copied their manifold from Conrero? I don't know.

In the end, the Webers are positioned the same whether it is an original FNM 2300 manifold or an OKP manifold. I was very unhappy with the last set of FNM rubber isolators I bought from Brazil, which is what convinced me to change to the OKP unit.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
DPeterson3 is offline  
post #6 of 48 (permalink) Old 08-29-2016, 04:48 PM
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air plenum for me

Don,
I'd like one for my 102 with the OKP manifold and Webers.
As an aside, I know that some 3,200 102s ran just fine with what seems to me very small inlet holes on the stock air filter canister, but in the quest for more air and cooler air I may try to enlarge those holes and create a snorkel that extends forward behind the grill.
What do you think of that?
(I like originality, but the urge to tinker is there.)

So, put me down for one.
Thanks.
Richard B.
Colorado
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post #7 of 48 (permalink) Old 08-29-2016, 08:11 PM Thread Starter
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I always enjoyed my first 10204, which was bone stock. Never felt a need for more speed at the time, and the Solex carbs worked great for around-town driving.

I wonder how many people actively drive these cars anymore? We turned over 8,000 miles on the way home from Monterey. As it hit the road in late 2009 (really early 2010), that's a little over 1,000 miles per year. Not all that much, really, although the rate has increased since I got all the engine issues sorted out in the first couple of years. Some of the enthusiasm for driving it is the invigorating performance. I never thought I'd tie those words into a sentence discussing a 102.

The point being, with these few simple mods the car is great on the road, and really quite comfortable. I hope to wear it out before I'm used up.

There is no certainty we'll get this plenum project to work right. The fabrication company is absolutely up to the job. The question, at least in my mind, is to sort out the details, such as to make sure the stock carb support rod can be made to work, the connector hose fits and lines up, and that any flanges are strong enough to endure. Painted in wrinkle black, it'll look the part.

Stand by...

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
DPeterson3 is offline  
post #8 of 48 (permalink) Old 08-30-2016, 01:29 AM
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Don,

Thank you for your detailled answer (as usual),

Quote:
Originally Posted by DPeterson3 View Post
The OKP manifold provides a vacuum outlet port at the rear if someone wants to install a vacuum brake booster. Do you know anyone who might be installing a vacuum brake booster on a 102?
I will

It is may be too early for me (I have to define precisely the details of my project) but I might be interested in your air plenum in glass fiber.
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post #9 of 48 (permalink) Old 08-30-2016, 07:26 AM Thread Starter
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Note, I will have no financial interest in the project. I'm merely serving as the prototyper and perhaps marketing facilitator.

My enthusiasm is driven mainly by the current success of my reconfigured engine. Having enjoyed the Solexes, and played with several Weber-converted 102s over th years, suddenly the clouds have parted shining on what seems a sweet-spot improvement.

Hopefully this will ripen into fruit so others can find new pleasure with their 102s.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
DPeterson3 is offline  
post #10 of 48 (permalink) Old 08-30-2016, 02:46 PM
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I would be in for one

This sounds like a very good idea, and though I have not yet driven the 2000 (and will not do for a while), I always like the thought of improving the drivability of my cars, all older than myself.
One thing I have not yet fully understood is where you get your steeper camshafts from?

Patrick
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post #11 of 48 (permalink) Old 08-30-2016, 03:03 PM Thread Starter
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I got cams via Richard Jemison, who is generally well known on the BB. His recommendation seems to perfectly fit my goals. My application had complications, but it is working now, and probably would not be a factor in modifying an original 2000. If anyone wants to follow a similar path, contact me directly and I'll share recommendations. You can see the dyno results of my engine in the thread on my car.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
DPeterson3 is offline  
post #12 of 48 (permalink) Old 08-31-2016, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DPeterson3 View Post
Some of you will be familiar with my efforts to build up a fun FNM2300 engine in my 59 Touring. The latest work includes use of the OKP/Conrero manifold, which makes Weber installation much neater than modifying an original siamesed Solex manifold. The downside of the OKP manifold is that it tilts the Webers upward (as the Weber factory recommends), making it impossible to use the original air intake plenum via the further use of gender-menders to fit it to the Weber carbs. The performance with K&N filter canisters has been completely acceptable, but I often hear rumbles about people preferring a more original look, if possible.

OK.

I am working with a company to fabricate an air plenum in glass fiber using a mold from the original, but with Weber-oriented flanges, and with the overall height reduced to clear the closed hood. We intend that the front air inlet would be in its original place allowing the original rubber hose to connect it to the original air cleaner. This would allow a very easy conversion, with little to no scrounging for solutions.

Would any of you be interested? There is work to be done, but it is already started. Needless to say, the final cost would be directly related to the size of the production run.

The company doing the work is already in the business of fabricating fiberglass air inlet plenums, so we're not reinventing the wheel.
Hello Don,

I would be interested in the plenum for my Rio engine. I have been concentrating on other projects this year, but I would like to go that route with the intake/carbs.

Best Regards,
Lou D'Amore
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post #13 of 48 (permalink) Old 08-31-2016, 04:42 PM Thread Starter
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It is a little surprising, but quite gratifying, that we have even a few raising their hand for this. Making the mold, and prototyping it to ensure everything fits, will cost time and money. The more that buy in, the cheaper it is for all of us.

Please let me know of anyone else that wants in, and I'll keep you all apprised of developments.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
DPeterson3 is offline  
post #14 of 48 (permalink) Old 11-04-2016, 05:58 PM
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Hi Don,

I am interested in this part

rgds Franco
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post #15 of 48 (permalink) Old 11-04-2016, 08:11 PM
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Webers probably need more air than Solex carburetors

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skinthin View Post
As an aside, I know that some 3,200 102s ran just fine with what seems to me very small inlet holes on the stock air filter canister, but in the quest for more air and cooler air I may try to enlarge those holes and create a snorkel that extends forward behind the grill.

Richard B.
Colorado

After 27 years of tinkering with Two-Liters; 15 years with Webers, Richard is exactly right. The cars ran okay with Solex carburetors on the stock induction set up but Webers must require a larger volume of air. The stock air filter housing has one main snail shaped air intake that is roughly 2" x 1" and sort of a "D" in cross section. There are 12 additional 4 mm diameter holes along the bottom of the snail shaped intake that wraps around the air filter housing but they all dump into the restrictive 'D' shaped duct. By contrast, the opening on the aluminum intake plenum attached to the carburetors is 3" in diameter and so is the fitting on top of the air filter housing.

Having just replaced the stock type air filter with a foam UFI filter from Centerline International, I can state that the restriction in the induction system is caused by the small opening on the air filter housing. I like the idea of installing a snorkel on the front of the air filter housing, like the Duetto has but sized for a Two-Liter (can anyone state the diameter of the opening). When I remove the rubber hose between the air filter and the intake plenum the engine is significantly more responsive and powerful without the restrictive filter housing.

I suspect that anyone who converts his Two-Liter to Webers will also need to modify their air filter housing for optimum results. Cars with Solex carburetors may benefit from a modified filter housing as well!

Richard have you made any progress with this idea?

Don, I spoke with the Two-Liter Lover tonight and Jay has 227,000 miles on his car!

Mark

Last edited by IRONBLOCK; 11-04-2016 at 08:14 PM.
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