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post #1 of 21 (permalink) Old 08-26-2016, 09:05 AM Thread Starter
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Hot Rodding the 2 Liter

Years ago there was a magazine article "Hot-Rodding the 2 Liter" done by Val Dietrich. I admired his determination to increase the Two Liter engines performance. The article was reprinted in "The Portello Works" by Tom and Dale Zat:

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post #2 of 21 (permalink) Old 08-26-2016, 09:43 AM
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Interesting. I did see a "2.3 liter" 2000 Touring roadster at the Concorso. It looked OK. Didn't see the owner. There was a lot of gorgeous Italian machinery there!

Rob
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post #3 of 21 (permalink) Old 08-26-2016, 10:37 AM
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Rob,

Mostly, I hung out around my car, but made one escape for a 15 minute tour of the Maserati area. Sorry I missed you. The car has about 8,000 miles since I restored it, so not bothered that it "looks OK". Lots of fun along those miles.

"Don Juan" is currently fitted with an FNM 2300 engine, and has been well documented in another thread. Interesting to read the post above from Mark. Sounds like some major surgery to get the venerable 102 engine to be more exciting. By comparison, my hotrod efforts haven't been all that extreme. After reading the above post, I may go back and review my own pictures to see what the counterweight configuration is on my crank. I don't recall at the moment. I know it gets to an indicated 7,000 RPM very quickly now, and would keep going if I let it. Note that the tach recently tested to read about 500 RPM high.

When I look into the distant future, I see these Touring roadsters gradually moving from the road to collections, museum, or rust piles. I've tried to preserve the original condition of mine in a manner that it can be quickly returned to bone-stock configuration. However, in the meantime, the car is vastly more fun to drive than with the original engine. I can understand why threads dedicated to finding more power in the cast iron 2000 have populated the BB for many years.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
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post #4 of 21 (permalink) Old 08-26-2016, 10:56 AM
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Hi,

Thank you Mark for this document.
I understand nearly everything but I have one question. Val Dietrich increase the bore to around 90 mm. But what about the piston. Did I missed something ?
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post #5 of 21 (permalink) Old 08-26-2016, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PS70 View Post
Hi,

Thank you Mark for this document.
I understand nearly everything but I have one question. Val Dietrich increase the bore to around 90 mm. But what about the piston. Did I missed something ?
I think we can assume that when someone says they over-bored an engine that pistons to fit were also purchased. I don't believe 90mm were offered as a standard oversize, but if these guys determined it could be done without risking the structure of the block, then so be it. I think (memory is vague) that the FNM2300 is around 88mm bore, but with a longer stroke than the 2000 crank.

The original modifier doesn't mention the compression ratio they built the pistons to achieve. There's not a lot of room in the 102 combustion chamber, given the high-crown piston.

I wonder what happened to their engine?

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
DPeterson3 is online now  
post #6 of 21 (permalink) Old 08-26-2016, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DPeterson3 View Post
I wonder what happened to their engine?
Val is still around and still driving his 102 roadster. That may well have been his car that racingswim2006 saw at the Concorso.

Jay Mackro
San Juan Capistrano, CA

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post #7 of 21 (permalink) Old 08-27-2016, 06:45 AM Thread Starter
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Glad to hear that Val is still driving his Touring Roadster around. Perhaps you can ask him which magazine printed his article (other than Zat's) so I can locate it. I am sure that I have the original article around here somewhere; I just don't know where. I believe that in the original article or perhaps a 'follow up' he discussed and photographed which pistons were used and how they were more modern pistons that were not so tall and may have had one less ring, for better performance.
The tiny crankshaft photograph shows how Val went from a crank with only 4 balance weights to one with eight balance weights more equally spaced.

Rob, if the '2.3 Liter' you saw was off white with wire wheels, I am sure it was Don's car.

Mark
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post #8 of 21 (permalink) Old 08-27-2016, 07:21 AM
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I spotted only two other 102s (and no 2600s) at Concorso. One of the 102's was recently finished for a fellow named Guido, done by Tom Sahines. Nice, with Webers, but not the subject hot rod.

The other 102 was also red/black. Very attractive with Borranis. Don't know much about it.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
DPeterson3 is online now  
post #9 of 21 (permalink) Old 08-27-2016, 09:18 PM
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Could I get you to send me the article on Fusi and Numbers please. It reads with some interesting take on the numbers. please and Thank you.

Christopher

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post #10 of 21 (permalink) Old 08-29-2016, 08:37 AM Thread Starter
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Hi Christopher,

There is only a little more information from Tom regarding 'Fusi and Numbers' but you'll also see "We're Back" wherein Tom gives an excellent history of the 2000/2600 Owners Association, which was started by Malcolm Harris (publisher of many awesome Alfa books, including one of my favorites "The Immortal 8c 2.9" and Jay Nuxoll who is still active on this forum today! I believe it was Jay's 2000 Berlina that Tom used to promote Alfa Heaven. George Meikrantz carried the torch for a while, then my good friends Tom Sanor and Frank Rizzo, both still active with the AROC and Alfa Romeo, produced newsletters and a register before Tom and Dale Zat took over officially...

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post #11 of 21 (permalink) Old 08-29-2016, 11:41 AM
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I'm posting a new thread on the 1900/2000/2600 form regarding a new production air plenum for the 2000 to facilitate the use of the OKP/Conrero intake manifold. Sort of related to "hot rodding the 2000".

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
DPeterson3 is online now  
post #12 of 21 (permalink) Old 08-29-2016, 03:47 PM
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Hi All

The maximum overbored size in an 1900 and 102 standard cast is 86mm

in a 2300 engine the max overbored size is 90mm


rgds Franco
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post #13 of 21 (permalink) Old 08-29-2016, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by franco-veloce View Post
Hi All

The maximum overbored size in an 1900 and 102 standard cast is 86mm

in a 2300 engine the max overbored size is 90mm


rgds Franco
I believe you are quoting the max factory-recommended overbore, not necessarily the maximum that might actually be achieved out here in the jungle.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
DPeterson3 is online now  
post #14 of 21 (permalink) Old 08-30-2016, 01:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DPeterson3 View Post
I believe you are quoting the max factory-recommended overbore, not necessarily the maximum that might actually be achieved out here in the jungle.
That is very interresting.

Do you think that a 2300 engine piston would be compatible with the 2000 cylinder head and connecting rod.

Idea : Enlarge the 102 standard cast to 90 mm and replace 102 pistons by 2300.

What do you thing of that ?
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post #15 of 21 (permalink) Old 08-30-2016, 07:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PS70 View Post
That is very interresting.

Do you think that a 2300 engine piston would be compatible with the 2000 cylinder head and connecting rod.

Idea : Enlarge the 102 standard cast to 90 mm and replace 102 pistons by 2300.

What do you thing of that ?
No.

The 2300 engine has a longer stroke than the 2000. Thus, the 2300 piston has a much lower crown to achieve essentially the same compression ratio as the 2000. Even if you successfully over bored to the 88mm (I think) of the 2300, you would end up with a very low compression ratio and poor power.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
DPeterson3 is online now  
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