I continue to follow the board and answer questions now and then but it has been a while since I posted - and there has been a good reason.
I have been working on the engine base and I have virtually all of that restored and cleaned up less the machining. My last part to clean up was the block and after I got the gunk and scale off I noticed that there was a crack in the upper water channel. This was back in August.
After that, and some weeks of depression I went to pursue someone who could repair the block. I found many leads and interfaced with several shops but as of yet I have no one who will take the job.
I do not know if these cracks go through fully, or if they could be patched with brazing or some other technique reliably. I would like to keep my block if possible.
A few months back, there was a post here about a cylinder head and block for sale. I PMed the guy but never got a response.
Anyway, any suggestions on what to do with my block, or a source for repair or a source for a block would be appreciated.
Have you tried Lock 'n' Stitch? It is a technique used quite successfully on this side of the water, but the products and service center originate in the USA.
Very sad to hear of this development. The only time I've seen a 102 block crack, it was one I was building and a friend's wife knocked it off a stand onto the floor, and a corner of the oil pan mounting flange broke off.
I would wonder why the crack happened. Possibly freezing coolant? If so, there may be other cracks waiting to be found.
I recommend you surrender and find another block or engine. They are out there. It helps to have a spare even if you can satisfactorily repair your block.
Very sad to hear of this development. The only time I've seen a 102 block crack, it was one I was building and a friend's wife knocked it off a stand onto the floor, and a corner of the oil pan mounting flange broke off.
That would have killed the evening!!!
Pete ps: Dabraham, In New Zealand that would be fixable ... good luck. Where are you? Are you close to this guy in the USA?, as he could fix it for you: http://forum.gemellocattivo.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6&start=280
Have any of these shops given you a quote? I am sure they will tell you flat out, I wont guaranty the repair! I look at that crack and think of a Chrysler 225 in a boat my father tried to save 35 years ago, it held for about a week and failed! These were easy to come by so it was just a cheap gamble that everyone bet against!
I agree with DPeterson, find another block. If you can keep this one, who know maybe someone will come up with a better way to fix that.
The shops I was looking at were ones who do the lock and stitch. A lot of run around and nothing ever materialized.
I think deep down I knew the correct answer on what to do, but I did not want to admit that to myself and that is what Don said - New Block
And thanks Don for finding the block on Ebay. I search Ebay (I thought thoroughly) at least two times a week for parts and I never saw this engine. I tried again this morning after knowing the engine was there and I still could not see it. It turns out the title has ARA and not Alfa so I didnt see it. I need to rethink future searches in light of this.
Anyway, I have contacted the seller on Ebay and hopefully we can come to terms.
You might consider contacting Franco, as last I heard he had most of two FNM 2300 engines. I think one is complete, while the other is not. Another 102 owner is talking to him about his complete engine, but you could use just a block and crank. Your head will fit onto it, and you could almost certainly use your flywheel and rods. You could also use your 44PHH with stock manifold, if you don't mind missing out on some of the fun.
You can get all the parts you need to build up the engine.
I don't know if it's OK, but I have a complete 2000 Touring spider engine for sale, except intake manifold and carburateur that are not correct for spider.
I received an offer for a block from a very generous member of the BB located locally in CT. I do not know if he would want me to state his name so I wont state it here.
Many thanks to you for the block, and many thanks to the other offers I received from the other BB members.
I heard from the guy on Ebay from Cyprus today - turns out he can only ship weights of 20kg or less! How many pieces would that be?
Again, many many thanks for the block. I can now go back to finishing my engine.
Someone PMd me today thinking I was the one with the cracked block. He has a complete engine looking for a home. I redirected him to you. If all you've found is a block you'll want to confirm that the block and your crank will go with each other. There are early and late bearings for the case. I'm not certain if a crank from one series will fit into the other series.
Thanks for the input and I did not think of this. The block does come with a crank, but now you make me think that other engine parts I have may be incompatible with an earlier model block. Is there any other area I should be aware of?
Just find out the engine serial numbers and let us know.
The main difference is the width of the rear main bearing, wider on engines up to serial #432. It may be that cranks can be swapped between early and late cases. Jay might know.
To my knowledge there are no other differences along the production run.
That is a pre-432 engine and is essentially the same as the late 1900 blocks. All of the post-432 components should fit.
The question you can't answer until you get it to the shop is whether the cylinders and crank can be made serviceable. It has been my experience that engines that are no longer assembled generally have a higher incidence of terminal flaws than those that are complete and assembled. When trying to rebuild the former, I often discover why they were dismantled in the first place.
This engine is only 21 units off from the one that was supposedly original to my car.
Doug, did the fellow with the complete engine contact you? If not, I'll forward his info.
You could do far worse than using this block to build up your existing engine and buy and rebuild the complete unit as a spare. Having a ready-to-go engine keeps your car on the road. Plus, in a decade or so when you have a problem, how hard do you think it will be to find critical components?
Hey, Doug, two liter blocks are cast iron. The old cars all had them. Few do now, so you must look up the oldest oldest welders to do the job. Pictures show that yours it an internal water freeze but fixable. I have had worse than that fixed in Seattle. Guy had a huge oven that heated the entire block so that the welding would not merely extend the crack. Mine was also in the water galley and the ends are plugged with aluminum and I had to fill them and pean them in carefully after the welding job. That car was AR10204*00081 and I believe it now on east coast. I remember that when I sold it I drove it to Roseburg, Oregon and took the bus back to Seattle. The buyer repainted it gray and sold it to a gal in Fresno. She tried to outdraw a car on the freeway from a standing start on the side of the road (big error, because the car is NOT designed to do drag racing) and blew the engine. She somehow traced it back to me and brought it to me on a trailer. I recall driving it back to deliver it to her in Fresno and having a CHP follow me carefully for miles expecting me to speed. Then I went by bus to San Jose to discover how the county had managed to unclog the Superior Court. I discovered they some how made it mandatory that all cases under $50,000 had to be brought in lower courts first. King County then decided to do the same thing by making arbitration mandatory if under that limit.,
But I wanted to assure you that welding is not only possible, but also very workable. I also happen to have three extra blocks Jay
I still fear Dons comment on what else was stressed and potentially permanently altered in the block. In my searching for a repair facility, I had guessed what you stated in that I would have to find a very old timer in order to do the job. Either that or someone who is truly interested in learning and maintaining the old ways of vintage car repair.
The places I contacted had advertised as being able to do the job, but upon contact I would find out that they no longer repair blocks mostly because the person who had the experience had retired - probably pop who left the shop to his son. This happened a half a dozen or so father and son shops I contacted.
Its funny (really its not) in that this situation of loosing expertise and knowledge from the older to the younger generation is widespread and from what I see is not isolated or weighted to any one field of work as i have encountered this myself in my field.
Anyway, I plan to keep the block and search for repair - but now in low gear. I picked up the block from Roger yesterday and my first task will be to see if the cranks are different between the years. And wow, I forgot how heavy these things are - and this was without pistons unlike the first time I had to move one.
Again many thanks to you Roger! and 190 was a very scenic route on the way back once we passed the wave of lights
Doug, have you tried asking shops who repair farm equipment -- they usually have a completely different attitude about what repairs can or cannot be done.
The cranks are different between years. See the pics. The upper is the older crank (59) and the lower is a newer crank (61). The counterweight width by cylinder 4 is clearly wider on the later crank.
Doug,
I keep looking, and must confess I don't see the difference. The only real difference between later two liter engines and the carry-over 1900 blocks used in the first 436 two liter spider engines and the first 12 two liter sedan engines would in the rear main bearing journals. The early engines had wider bearings (1306.10.072) at front, middle and rear main journals and narrow ones (1306.10.071) at journals two and four (i.e. called by Alfa the intermediate journals). Later engines had wider bearings only at front and middle, using narrow ones at the rear main as well as the intermediate journals.
Vanderwell (Now Mahle) used to sell standard size main bearing sets under VR707 (or was it 727?) for the early engines, and VR777 for the later ones, also in 1st, 2nd and 3rd oversize. Alfa listed in the parts catalog and sold standard main bearings in separate single shell pairs, but only in 1st and 2nd oversize using the above mentioned part numbers (obviously originally early 1900 engine part numbers used also in 1308 later 1900 engines also) followed by M1 or M2. (no M3).
Theoretically, since Alfa also sold rod bearings in single shell pairs, it would be possible to turn only a single journal instead of all of them in the most common bearing problem in two liter engines (i.e. Rod No 4 journal gouged), but I have never had the courage to try that.
BTW -- somewhere previously on the Bulletin Board is a post of mine with more information about how the Mahle company which now owns Vandervell Bearings has all the old information about the bearing sizes sold in the old sets, but has none in stock. Since these bearings are the ones used in all 1900 and two liter engines they said they would make some sets up if there were a group request. Maybe someone looking for bearings might want to look up that old post. I am working on a trial brief this Saturday and don't have time today. Sometimes memory plays tricks on us older guys with the dreaded CRS (Can't Remember Sh*t) disease, and I may have the Vandervell bearing set number wrong for the earlier engine. Incidentally, the numbers and sizes for rod bearings are identical for all 1900, two liter, 2600, Sportiva, and early 3000 Alfa engines (not V-6) and they interchange. Once upon a time -- 40 or more years ago -- I also used some International Harvestor bearings that worked as half oversizes courtesy of my Dad who was once an IHC dealer. Now no way to find them.
Look at the widths of the two counterweights on the lower picture - the one to the right is about 1/8 of an inch wider than the one to the left, and the crank will not fit into the block because if this. I tried and there is interference.
Both of the cranks I have are 3 wide and 2 narrow.
Doug
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