2600 Sprint Steering box - Page 4 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums

 1Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #46 of 86 (permalink) Old 04-10-2015, 03:50 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
qld gtv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Queensland, Australia
Posts: 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by alfa123ca View Post
I just received the second worm gear from Macs this time, it is listed as a RHD but the direction of the roller matches my LHD roller. I am having it pressed on today and in the next while will assemble the spare box and try out on the car. It is in fact made in Argentina as Ruedi suspected. For those with LHD CARS IT IS PART # 68-3524-RH
This seems to have solved the expensive refurbishment of the steering boxes.
Cheers, John
John
Have you checked if the worm bearing surfaces are the same size? Some of the Mac worms seem to suit a larger bearing. Mine fitted with only a minor shim adjustment.

Paul
1973 Alfa Romeo 2000 GTV and 1964 Alfa Romeo 2600 Sprint
qld gtv is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #47 of 86 (permalink) Old 04-10-2015, 05:37 PM
Senior Member
Platinum Subscriber
 
tubut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 8,245
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by qld gtv View Post
Interestingly the other part number you quote is a different part no and stock no to the worm I purchased which fitted my RHD Sprint (32-17597-1).
FWIW, that part is shown on this detail page.

Interestingly, the numbers shown above list only 1936 cars in the "Applications" tab while your number lists 1937-48 cars.

-Ruedi
'63 2600 Touring Spider (AR 191437, the car that started the 2000/2600 International Register, reassembly in progress)
ex-'65 2600 SZ (AR 856043, now a restomod in Austria)
Maintainer of a private 2600 SZ register (not the one in the Netherlands).

Last edited by tubut; 04-10-2015 at 06:28 PM.
tubut is online now  
post #48 of 86 (permalink) Old 04-10-2015, 06:02 PM
Senior Member
Platinum Subscriber
 
tubut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 8,245
Garage
More digging, more results:

It appears the Ford steering boxes used different ratios: 13:1 (1932-34), 15:1 (1935) and 17:1 with fixed sector, 17:1 with roller (1937-48).

I read on a HodRod site that early Ford steering boxes with fixed sectors were prone to wear. I would guess that the change from 1936 to 1937-48 worms is geometric and/or dimensional, not just material or finishing (i.e. if they 1937-48 worms would fit in 1936 boxes, they probably would not make two kinds of worms today).

Correspondingly, I found the following worm on the Macs web site:

Ford 1937-48 RHD, Part #: 32-17598-1, Alt Part #: 78-3524-RH OEM Part #: 78-3524.

John, could you please check whether the part you received had parts number 68-3524-RH or 78-3524-RH (difference in 2-digit prefix)

-Ruedi
'63 2600 Touring Spider (AR 191437, the car that started the 2000/2600 International Register, reassembly in progress)
ex-'65 2600 SZ (AR 856043, now a restomod in Austria)
Maintainer of a private 2600 SZ register (not the one in the Netherlands).

Last edited by tubut; 04-10-2015 at 06:30 PM.
tubut is online now  
 
post #49 of 86 (permalink) Old 04-10-2015, 09:19 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
qld gtv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Queensland, Australia
Posts: 166
Quote:
Originally Posted by tubut View Post
More digging, more results:

It appears the Ford steering boxes used different ratios: 13:1 (1932-34), 15:1 (1935) and 17:1 with fixed sector, 17:1 with roller (1937-48).

I read on a HodRod site that early Ford steering boxes with fixed sectors were prone to wear. I would guess that the change from 1936 to 1937-48 worms is geometric and/or dimensional, not just material or finishing (i.e. if they 1937-48 worms would fit in 1936 boxes, they probably would not make two kinds of worms today).

Correspondingly, I found the following worm on the Macs web site:

Ford 1937-48 RHD, Part #: 32-17598-1, Alt Part #: 78-3524-RH OEM Part #: 78-3524.

John, could you please check whether the part you received had parts number 68-3524-RH or 78-3524-RH (difference in 2-digit prefix)
Reudi
Well done I think you have found the worm for the LHD Alfas. I hope Johns worm does not turn out to be the wrong size in some dimension (that's why I asked him about the bearings).

Now all we have to do is find the appropriate 3 tooth roller to match that 78-3524 or 78-3524-RH worm and we have completly solved the problem. Mac's sell a 2 tooth roller (7RC-3575-X) to match the 78-3524 worm.

I suspect the correct 3 ridge roller will turn out to be 8A-3575-X. I have emailed them some days ago but have not yet got a reply. From what we now know about their part numbers I am almost confident enough to order one.

I have a new AFRA one in the box mated to 78-3524 so the additional would be a spare. I decided to buy a spare set in lieu of worrying about the case hardening.

Paul
1973 Alfa Romeo 2000 GTV and 1964 Alfa Romeo 2600 Sprint
qld gtv is offline  
post #50 of 86 (permalink) Old 04-10-2015, 11:59 PM
Senior Member
Platinum Subscriber
 
tubut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 8,245
Garage
I did some more digging into Ford steering gear parts and came across this web page with drawings from the Ford parts catalogs. It appears the 4-digit numbers pertain to part categories rather than specific parts (e.g. #3575 for the sector is used from 1932 to 1953, no matter whether it was a fixed sector (up to 1936) or roller sector (from 1937 onward), as well as on F1 and F100 pickup trucks from 1940 to 1960.

This page with suggestions for steering gear adjustment states: "The worm and roller type gear was used from 1937 to 1948. Ford used the Gemmer model 305 in Fords from '37 to '40 and in Mercurys from '39 to '42. From 1941 to '48 (Ford) and from 1946 to '48 (Mercury) Ford used their own manufactured version which was similar to the Gemmer 305 gearset. Some minor differences in parts occurred over the years." I have a hunch these changes may have been quite significant.

It seems to be the prefix that makes the part specific, e.g. prefix 68 for Ford Model 68 in 1936, and prefix 78 for Ford Model 78 in 1937. However, some prefixes I found do not make sense (I was not able t match prefix "B7A" to a Ford model designation.

Looking for 3-tooth rolling sectors on the Macs web site yielded several results:

Steering Gearbox Sector Shaft Gear And Pin - 0.442 Pin OD, Part #: 49-19363-1, Alt Part #: 8A-3575-X
Steering Gearbox Sector Shaft Gear And Pin - 0.472 Pin OD, Part #: 49-25200-1, Alt Part #: AB-3575-X
Ford Pickup Sector Roller & Pin - F100 & F250, Part #: 48-30119-1, Alt Part #: B7C-3575-X

Furthermore, this search also revealed additional worms (e.g. 3 worms, including an RHD worm for Pickup trucks -- presumably all with 3-tooth sector rollers), but I'm mentioning this passenger car one because it specifically mentions a 3-tooth roller:

Steering Shaft Worm Gear - For 3 Tooth Sector, Part #: 49-29680-1, Alt Part #: B7A-3524-X

In order to assess parts interchangeability, it seems to be important to make a list of worm shaft diameters and roller pin diameters used on various Alfa models (e.g. 1900, 102, and 106) and Ford models.

The good news is we seem to have some options. The bad news is it requires some effort to figure out which options are valid.

-Ruedi
'63 2600 Touring Spider (AR 191437, the car that started the 2000/2600 International Register, reassembly in progress)
ex-'65 2600 SZ (AR 856043, now a restomod in Austria)
Maintainer of a private 2600 SZ register (not the one in the Netherlands).

Last edited by tubut; 04-11-2015 at 12:07 AM.
tubut is online now  
post #51 of 86 (permalink) Old 04-11-2015, 12:40 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
qld gtv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Queensland, Australia
Posts: 166
Ruedi

I should have mentioned that my 1964 2600 Sprint has a 0.442 pin dia which is why I selected the 8A-3575-X roller. Other 2600's may have something different though.

Even if in worst case we cannot get a roller to match a competent machinist could make a new roller but that worm is a different story!

By the way my virtually brand new steering is now a delight to drive. We went shopping in the 2600 today and maneuvering into parking spaces is now a quite reasonable task. I would not say the steering could be called light but it is pleasantly 60's like.

Paul
1973 Alfa Romeo 2000 GTV and 1964 Alfa Romeo 2600 Sprint
qld gtv is offline  
post #52 of 86 (permalink) Old 04-11-2015, 08:04 AM
Registered User
Platinum Subscriber
 
alfa123ca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: White Rock, BC, Canada
Posts: 199
Paul, I bearings were a proper fit to the face of the roller. I assembled the box and everything works as it should. I will install it today on the car and see how it performs under load and advise.
Reudi, the part number was in fact 68-3524-RH

John
Attached Images
 
alfa123ca is offline  
post #53 of 86 (permalink) Old 04-11-2015, 08:35 AM
Registered User
Platinum Subscriber
 
alfa123ca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: White Rock, BC, Canada
Posts: 199
Hi All upon looking at Macs website regarding the rollers there is some confusion regarding the part numbers, the new roller I received has an OEM part Number of 68-3524-RH which corresponds to their part number of 32-1798-1 but only when you search for the OEM part number. I looked on the web page and came across the following.
1932-1948 Early V8 Ford & Mercury Passenger Steering Box Parts - Macs Auto Parts
If you scroll down to the bottom of the web page you will see my new roller has a different OEM part number then what was sent. This could be a web page error. My roller is the one on the left of the page.
Steering Worm Gear Without Shaft - Right Hand Drive Only - Ford Passenger Part # 32-17598-1

Fits: 1937-1948
FORD

Alt #: 78-3524-RH

This fits my LHD box it is not for a RHD box.
John
alfa123ca is offline  
post #54 of 86 (permalink) Old 04-11-2015, 08:43 AM
Registered User
Platinum Subscriber
 
alfa123ca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: White Rock, BC, Canada
Posts: 199
For those that wish to replace the roller on the LHD worm gear it is as follows. Part #: 32-18184-1
Alt Part #: 7RC-3575-X
Price:
$59.75

John
alfa123ca is offline  
post #55 of 86 (permalink) Old 04-11-2015, 10:59 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
qld gtv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Queensland, Australia
Posts: 166
John, Just to clarify are you saying that the worm gear you were sent is actually 78-3524-RH but was marked 68-3524-RH?

Can you advise if your box had a two ridge roller or a three ridge roller(same as my Sprint)?

What Ruedi and I have been discussing is that 7RC-3575-X is a two ridge roller whereas we are trying to find a three ridge roller to match our worms.

Paul
1973 Alfa Romeo 2000 GTV and 1964 Alfa Romeo 2600 Sprint
qld gtv is offline  
post #56 of 86 (permalink) Old 04-11-2015, 04:02 PM
Registered User
Platinum Subscriber
 
alfa123ca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: White Rock, BC, Canada
Posts: 199
Hi Paul, no the one they sent me was part number 68-3524-RH this is for the LHD
I believe they have a mistake on their web site regarding the OEM numbers that coincide with their internal numbers.
To answer your other question my roller is a two ridge roller.
I have installed the rebuilt box with the above mentioned worm gear and it drives like the truck it was intended for. Smoother than the old one and a lot tighter, but still like a truck at low speeds. Why could they have not picked a box from GM or Volvo for that matter, anything but a truck.
John
alfa123ca is offline  
post #57 of 86 (permalink) Old 04-11-2015, 04:39 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
qld gtv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Queensland, Australia
Posts: 166
John

I am glad you have a good result. I am very happy with the steering on my Sprint now. I find it very smooth and light enough but I am used to driving lots of old cars.

The Gemmer design was the same as the Marles steering box which was used on many English cars in the 1950's including Aston Martin, Riley, Daimler etc. I don't think we can fairly describe it as a truck steering box. If you look at the list of applications it was usually fitted to larger heavier cars where the more normal worm and peg set up may not have been strong enough.

I think we are probably a bit spoilt since they invented rack and pinion and power steering

Paul
1973 Alfa Romeo 2000 GTV and 1964 Alfa Romeo 2600 Sprint
qld gtv is offline  
post #58 of 86 (permalink) Old 04-11-2015, 06:43 PM
Registered User
Platinum Subscriber
 
alfa123ca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: White Rock, BC, Canada
Posts: 199
Hi Paul, the truck reference was tongue in cheek, as the 2600 has been described as the best truck Alfa ever built in reference to the somewhat heavy steering.
I am more than pleased with the steering and really pleased with the collaborative effort of everyone on this board in finding a less expensive way to maintain our classics.
Cheers, John
alfa123ca is offline  
post #59 of 86 (permalink) Old 04-28-2015, 04:19 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 2,073
Hi All,

I ordered 2 worms by MAC's and a bearing set

1x worm for my 2000/2600 steeringbox
and 1x worm for my 1900 steeringbox

I received them today and checked them with the "worn" originals and they are exact the same

FYI these where made in ARGENTINA by CHS

rgds Franco
franco-veloce is offline  
post #60 of 86 (permalink) Old 04-28-2015, 09:41 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 15
Lower Oil Seal

One thing I found about 35 years ago is that a lot of the 2600 steering box problems occurred because the lower seal failed. All too many in the US do not check oil levels / repair anything until it has totally failed, so lack of a simple seal meant the steering box operated without lubricant and eventually died. I found a commonly available seal that worked very well for me, the steering box in my 2600 Sprint that I repaired back in those days does not leak. The part was National #240151, which is still easily found in the US with the note that it was used in 210 Ford vehicles (as well as Hudson, Nash, etc.).
Bob_fromLA is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome