2600 Sprint Steering box - Page 2 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums

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post #16 of 86 (permalink) Old 03-16-2015, 05:20 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks Ian and Alex,
Being down under it is a bit hard for me to follow up some of these things so your help is greatly appreciated.

Paul
1973 Alfa Romeo 2000 GTV and 1964 Alfa Romeo 2600 Sprint
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post #17 of 86 (permalink) Old 03-21-2015, 04:36 AM
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Unhappy Tandler

Alex, Paul & Ian
Just a possible update on the Tandler lead. I heard they had made some worms etc so at Race Retro a couple of years ago I had a chat with their guys, I got a story that their German MD (CEO) had a 2600and had a batch of gears made but they weren't going to do it again? (Why?) However there was another story going around about a batch of the gears that were made but incorrectly hardened and they all "chewed up". I am in no way linking Tandler to this story in case any one is a lawyer and thinks there is a case here! but it is just what was being said.
I put another chap onto Tandler who was after my steering box and he wanted a couple of RHD sets. So I am thinking there must be a sizeable demand for a RHD batch of these to be made. Alas I am a long long way off requiring these but have a couple of steering boxes that are bound to need going through.
Shame about John Mayhead packing it in as I'd just made contact when he was in Blandford not 15 minutes away, and he moved his operation and we never quite made the meeting that we casually arranged.
The powers of supply and demand I assume.
Ian let us know what happens with the excess stock!
Regards to all
Bryan
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post #18 of 86 (permalink) Old 03-22-2015, 04:07 AM Thread Starter
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Search for RHD Steering Worm

Just to update everyone. I am following a lead on a RHD worm from Europe and I am still talking to the Ford people. I will update everyone when I get some more news.

Paul
1973 Alfa Romeo 2000 GTV and 1964 Alfa Romeo 2600 Sprint
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post #19 of 86 (permalink) Old 03-26-2015, 05:59 PM
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RHD VS LHD

Hi all, I received the roller from the Ford Parts outfit, it appears to be a RHD roller and from the measurements I took it appears to be of the same dimensions as my LHD just reversed. If someone either in England or Australia would like to compare it to an original just pay for the shipping and I will send it over for yours to keep.
John
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post #20 of 86 (permalink) Old 03-26-2015, 06:48 PM
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I noted in their pictorial listings that they had rollers with both direction threads. Have you spoken to them about what we would consider a LHD worm, as well as the "sector" that might match their worms?

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
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post #21 of 86 (permalink) Old 03-26-2015, 07:30 PM
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As a reminder... I have four different "rollers" or worm gears for LHD boxes. NONE of them will interchange with a sector except the one it was originally matched with. The teeth might sort of intersect, but the arc or the worm and sector plus the pitch of the teeth results in their being too much distance between their bore centers. The worm and sector must be intended to match the other.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
DPeterson3 is offline  
post #22 of 86 (permalink) Old 03-27-2015, 05:31 AM
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John
I'd be happy to take you up on your offer, and I have 2 steering boxes off the cars so could do a comparison to a small sample of 2! As Don says there could be variants within the variants! Don't you love Italian stock control and parts updating.
I'll PM you later when I get home from work and hopefully we can sort something out.
Regards
Bryan
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post #23 of 86 (permalink) Old 03-27-2015, 09:33 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alfa123ca View Post
Hi all, I received the roller from the Ford Parts outfit, it appears to be a RHD roller and from the measurements I took it appears to be of the same dimensions as my LHD just reversed. If someone either in England or Australia would like to compare it to an original just pay for the shipping and I will send it over for yours to keep.
John
Just for clarity John the part you have pictured is the worm. The roller is the bit on the sector shaft.
Can you confirm that the bore through the center is the same size as your alfa shaft and do the splines fit?

Also have you compared the size of the tapered bearing diametres to see if they are the same?

I am going to get a bit complicated here but it will hopefully help us all understand what we are dealing with. I now understand that we should not be talking about LHD or RHD worms. What fits a LHD car or a RHD car is determined by which side of the chassis rail the box is fitted! We should be interested in whether the scroll of the worm runs clockwise or counter clockwise.

On our 2600's the box is mounted on the inside of the chassis rail and a RHD worm has a clockwise scroll and a LHD worm has a counter clockwise scroll.

Some Ford vehicles have the steering box on the outside of the frame and so on these cars a RHD worm has a counter clockwise scroll and a LHD worm has a clockwise scroll.

I hope this makes sense. So we need to ask not whether it is for a LHD car or RHD but rather is the scroll counter clockwise (suits LHD Alfa) or clockwise (suits RHD Alfa).

DPetersen3 is also correct in saying that the roller must match the worm but I will discuss this further in a different post.

Paul
1973 Alfa Romeo 2000 GTV and 1964 Alfa Romeo 2600 Sprint
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post #24 of 86 (permalink) Old 03-27-2015, 09:49 AM Thread Starter
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Steering Rollers

Quote:
Originally Posted by DPeterson3 View Post
As a reminder... I have four different "rollers" or worm gears for LHD boxes. NONE of them will interchange with a sector except the one it was originally matched with. The teeth might sort of intersect, but the arc or the worm and sector plus the pitch of the teeth results in their being too much distance between their bore centers. The worm and sector must be intended to match the other.
Don, I agree with you that the worm and roller must be matched.

In an earlier post you said you had a number of steering boxes and some have 3 ridge rollers and some have 2 ridge rollers. Did all these steering boxes come from 2600 Alfas or which models had which roller?

My 64 built 2600 has a 3 ridge roller.

On the Macs Ford Parts website all the 40's and early 50's boxes have two ridge rollers. The only Ford I have found (via the internet) to have a 3 ridge roller is the 57-60 F100 pickup and so far I have only found a counter clockwise scroll (ie LHD Alfa) for this model.

I have a clockwise worm and matching 2 ridge roller coming from Macs Ford Parts in the USA and I am hoping it will fit into my 2600 box but I am concerned as to why they changed from 2 ridge to 3 ridge rollers. Were 2 ridge rollers not considered strong enough for the 2600 or were there other reasons for the change.

Paul
1973 Alfa Romeo 2000 GTV and 1964 Alfa Romeo 2600 Sprint

Last edited by qld gtv; 03-27-2015 at 09:59 AM. Reason: spelling
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post #25 of 86 (permalink) Old 03-27-2015, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qld gtv View Post
I am going to get a bit complicated here but it will hopefully help us all understand what we are dealing with. I now understand that we should not be talking about LHD or RHD worms. What fits a LHD car or a RHD car is determined by which side of the chassis rail the box is fitted! We should be interested in whether the scroll of the worm runs clockwise or counter clockwise.

On our 2600's the box is mounted on the inside of the chassis rail and a RHD worm has a clockwise scroll and a LHD worm has a counter clockwise scroll.

Some Ford vehicles have the steering box on the outside of the frame and so on these cars a RHD worm has a counter clockwise scroll and a LHD worm has a clockwise scroll.

I hope this makes sense.
No, not for me. It worries me that I cannot fathom this. I guess my ability to think and work things out is not as it used to be .
Pete

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post #26 of 86 (permalink) Old 03-27-2015, 12:46 PM
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Paul,

Your explanation is correct and admirably succinct.

I should add that, among my steering box parts, one of the input shafts (inside the worm) is smaller than the others. Not by much, but enough that fitting a different worm results in a non-interference fit.

I can't really tell you the origin of all my boxes. One came on my car, which is a 59 2000, and if I recall right it has a 3 ridge roller/sector gear. My memory could be wrong. Two other boxes were bought when and as-found. I have since purchased two used-but-good-looking worm and roller sets. All for LHD Alfas. It seems quite possible that an early 2000 might have originally had a 2 ridge sector, but subsequently repaired with a 3 ridge unit. Both exhibit similar wear, so if one was an effort to cure the weaknesses of the other, it may not have succeeded.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
DPeterson3 is offline  
post #27 of 86 (permalink) Old 03-27-2015, 04:23 PM
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Steering box worm remanufacture

This is the response from John Mayhead - dead end I'm afraid

"I donít know a source for the Gemmer boxes. I found one company who would remanufacture them, but there was a minimum number. I asked people to commit and got one response. I wasnít going to spend £30,000 of my own money so decided not to bother"

I was coincidently called this week by another 2600 owner who is working with classic alfa to soure remanufactured worms so you never know. I have encouraged him to add to this thread but nothing yet.

Great work on the Ford worms if this comes off it would be amazing.
I'm a lttle concerned that Gemmer (France) boxes will be metric and Ford will be imperial. However , as these worms were made on specially constructed machines just maybe obe worm fits all

good luck

Ian
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post #28 of 86 (permalink) Old 03-31-2015, 05:17 AM Thread Starter
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RHD Steering worm success

You will all remember that a few weeks ago I was trying to talk to a company in California about steering worms in Ford V8's which were of the Gemmer design. These people Early Ford Parts never responded to my emails so I began corresponding with the helpful people at Mac's Auto Parts in New York

MACs Antique Auto Parts - Classic & Antique Ford Parts - Macs Auto Parts


After exchanging lots of measurements and emails about what i was trying to achieve they recommended a steering worm and I ordered it and had it sent to me in Australia. It arrived yesterday and I measured everything I could and all seemed well admittedly against my extremely worn old worm. I then tried it on the Sprints steering shaft and it was a perfect press fit on the spline.

The bearings matched the new worm perfectly and I assembled it into the box with one extra shim needed. MY NOS 3 ridge roller was initially a bit stiff on the worm but after moving it backwards and forwards a few times it was smooth. I adjusted the free play on the sector shaft and filled the box with Penrite steering lube. and reinstaled the steering box. I took the car for a short drive before i had to go out and everything seems to be a complete success.

I will drive it some more tomorrow and provide a further report.

So it seems that the Steering Worm fitted to a 1946/1948 Ford (LHD) is to all intents identical to a (RHD) Alfa Romeo Sprint 2600. We seem to have cracked a long running problem for 2600 owners via an amazing coincidence.

I think Ian is right the equipment to make these worms was probably so specialized Ford just carried it over with the same dimensions.

The part number is 32-17597-1 or 78-3524 and the worm cost me $60 plus $70 Fedex to Australia US freight cost are unbelievable!

Attache is a photo of the new worm. I will give a road test report tomorrow.
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Paul
1973 Alfa Romeo 2000 GTV and 1964 Alfa Romeo 2600 Sprint
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post #29 of 86 (permalink) Old 03-31-2015, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qld gtv View Post
So it seems that the Steering Worm fitted to a 1946/1948 Ford (LHD) is to all intents identical to a (RHD) Alfa Romeo Sprint 2600. We seem to have cracked a long running problem for 2600 owners via an amazing coincidence.

I think Ian is right the equipment to make these worms was probably so specialized Ford just carried it over with the same dimensions.
Don't you mean Alfa Romeo just carried it over with the same dimensions as 1946/48 is a long time before 2600's were made?

In effect we have just learnt that Alfa used a steering box that was nearly 20 years old!
Pete

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post #30 of 86 (permalink) Old 03-31-2015, 03:04 PM Thread Starter
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Don't you mean Alfa Romeo just carried it over with the same dimensions as 1946/48 is a long time before 2600's were made?

In effect we have just learnt that Alfa used a steering box that was nearly 20 years old!
Pete
No Pete, It just means that Gemmer kept using the same worm for many years just like your BMW/Holden etc uses bearing designs that are 100 years old or more.

I tried to keep this thread as simple as I could because it is a very complex issue. What I did not explain is that the Gemmer box used by Ford was a completely different and ancient design but it just happened to use the same worm and roller as the different design Alfa boxes 10 years later.

All fascinating stuff and we have not heard the last of it. I am amazed we have not heard from the 1900 boys and girls yet because I am pretty sure they use a similiar worm.

Paul
1973 Alfa Romeo 2000 GTV and 1964 Alfa Romeo 2600 Sprint
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