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post #16 of 48 (permalink) Old 11-20-2016, 01:30 PM
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Gemmer pics 2

More Gemmer details shots.

I have paired the worm and sectors with their mates. You can see that the flat area between the bevels on the worm gears are wider when used with the two-ridge sector.
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Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...

Last edited by DPeterson3; 11-20-2016 at 01:33 PM.
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post #17 of 48 (permalink) Old 11-20-2016, 01:31 PM
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Gemmer pics 3

Last of the Gemmer pics.
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Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
DPeterson3 is online now  
post #18 of 48 (permalink) Old 03-09-2017, 03:25 PM Thread Starter
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Hi All,

FYI

The WORMS of 2000 touring and 2600 steering box are different ,

they are not interchangable

the 2000 have 2 ril roller and 2600 have 3 ril roller
and the worm of 2000 has bigger side walls then the 2600 worm
if you look at the pictures of DON you can see it


CHS have the 2600 type worm and 3 ril roller rebuilt set

I bought a set and these are very good quality and fit perfect


rgds Franco
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post #19 of 48 (permalink) Old 03-09-2017, 06:21 PM
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I am in touch with CHS now, and am working toward finishing the two 2000 and one 2600 boxes that I have. At least one, and maybe two will be for sale when I'm done. I've got a fresh FNM box in the car, and a single spare should be enough.

Does anyone know if the two boxes have different ratios?

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
DPeterson3 is online now  
post #20 of 48 (permalink) Old 03-24-2017, 12:08 PM
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Don P., this is quite premature, but I will be restoring a 2600 Spider starting in around six weeks. I've not seen the car but it has 98K miles on it. Meaning, that quite possibly it could use a 'fresh' set of worm and rollers. I'll be seeing the car in about three weeks and would appreciate it if you could hold on to a set until then. I'm not familiar with these gear boxes, but I have heard of worm and sector gear boxes (same thing?). I'm assuming the wear causes a fair amount of free play in the center. If that is the case, what is considered too much play at standstill? Or..what play is considered good at standstill? I'm hoping the tires have inner tubes in them so that they'll hold air long enough to be able to check it, not to mention rolling it on and off a flatbed.

Please email me at biba69@alfacybersite.com as to how you would like to handle this and the amount + shipping will be.

Biba

AlfaCyberSite.com
BibaRestorations.com
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post #21 of 48 (permalink) Old 03-24-2017, 01:14 PM
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Hello Biba,

I'm responding publicly as it may be of on-going interest to others.

I'm not really a commercial vendor for these things. Just a retired hobbyist, with some degree of experience. So, I work as and when I wish, on what I wish. As I hobbyist, I enjoy interacting with others running the same path. I'm delighted to welcome you to the forum, and lend a hand where I can.

The boys in Argentina tend to be slow to respond, but I've got a conversation going with them. I hope to place an order for 3 rebuild kits shortly. If you think you might need yours overhauled, I recommend you get in on my order to save some freight, and I can run your box through my workshop at the same time.

It is possible that I will want to keep my 2600 box for use on my 2000. I haven't done any research on whether they have different ratios, but I intend to document that. I'm currently using a Brazilian FNM box, and don't know what it's ratio is, either. It's pleasant to drive around town and on the highway.

I don't know if the 2600 3-bead sector was an effort to reduce the wear behavior observed on the 2000 2-bead sector. Possibly. Probably? I don't know. The 2600 is heavier on the front wheels, so the already problematic wear on the lighter 2000 may have become dramatically bad on the later, heavier car.

There is an adjustment for free play on these boxes. I've found that if I tighten it up to remove all slop in the middle, it gets tight as it heads out toward the full-lock position. It might be that removing the slack in the area where it has worn results in the gear pre-load being too much out where it has not worn so much. I'm hoping that new gears will result in somewhat less slack than I have, but my FNM was rebuilt in Argentina when I bought it. It's OK, if not perfect. Might just be time to snug the free play adjustment.

But - back to your questions.

The 102 and 106 cars do use a worm and sector steering. I have seen wear on both the sector teeth facings and on the worm teeth facings. The worst seems to happen at the center-point of the steering, as this is where the steering spends most of its time, first grinding a flat spot, then a deeper hole in the contact area. This degrades the behavior at center, when you'd like to be able to use a light touch while driving straight down a lovely road. To make matters worse, the front suspension has essentially no caster. Caster is what gives steering a "feel", and helps with self-centering. So, in the best case we end up with vague steering while driving straight, and a suspension that is happy to wander from side to side in response to the slightest changes in the road. Clearly, our best option is a steering box that is fit and tight with zero wear, particularly near the driving-straight position.

When they really get worn, there can be all sorts of notchiness and grinding as you steer the wheel. Not fun at all.

I can't tell you whether your box needs an overhaul. It probably would benefit from one, even if it is in OK-for-the-mileage condition.

Yes, your original-size tires will have tubes in them. I am currently driving on a new set of Pirelli CA67s, and enjoying them immensely. I also like my aftermarket wire wheels, and modern tires, but then I like blondes, redheads, brunettes, petite, big, leggy, etc. You can also buy new Michelins that will fit your wheels, but based upon my experience so far, I'd vote for Pirelli.

I doubt I'll be doing the work on my boxes in the next month or two. Might start about then. If you would like me to overhaul your box, I'm happy to do it at a modest charge. Not sure what that would be, but enough to pay for all the cleaning, driving to and from the powder coater, etc, plus the cost of the rebuild kit. I'm awaiting a quote on those now.

Something else.... The box has a hollow through-shaft, in order to let the horn and flasher wires pass through. It protrudes out the lower end of the box through a rubber seal. If this shaft has worn, formed corrosion, and/or the seal has become hard after 50+ years, it will leak the gear oil that we wish would remain in the box. Another reason to consider a preemptive overhaul. A dry box will wear very quickly, and checking the steering box oil is something we all tend to put off.

Just a wildar$e guess... The kit is probably around $400 - $450 (including freight from Argentina). Powder coating, maybe $25 - $40. Time, travel, and labor, probably around $200. The time will be less if I'm building four boxes at once rather than one at a time.

Let me know if I can be of help.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...

Last edited by DPeterson3; 03-24-2017 at 01:18 PM.
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post #22 of 48 (permalink) Old 03-24-2017, 09:09 PM
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For years I put up with 'slop' in the steering despite my best efforts to adjust the steering box using the nut and threaded screw on top of the Two-Liter box. One day while I was attempting an adjustment with the car on 'jack stands' but it still had the 'slop'; I reached up under the steering box and grabbed the large arm (Pitman arm) attached to the bottom of the steering box and jerked it up and down. It was then apparent that the slop was in the connection between the Pitman arm and the shaft that it attaches to, coming through the steering box.

Not having many factory Alfa tools and no wrenches that fit the large nut that captures the Pitman arm. I managed to 'slightly straighten' the extra heavy duty lock tabs holding the nut firmly in place. Using a tiny 'El-cheapo' brand orange "C" clamp, it was possible to position the clamp on the large nut, then by "steering the wheels" take up the slack in the Pitman arm. The nut was probably rotated 2 or 3 revolutions to remove the slack. Then the lock tabs were bent back in place to keep the nut from coming loose.

The steering is now very nice with little or no apparent slop, no roughness, grinding or sticking. Still I wonder if the adjustment is really correct or not.

Mark
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post #23 of 48 (permalink) Old 03-24-2017, 09:33 PM
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Generally, getting the pittman arm loose is much more difficult than getting it tight. But, good thing to check.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
DPeterson3 is online now  
post #24 of 48 (permalink) Old 03-27-2017, 06:08 PM
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CHS Ventas

In today's email from CHS Ventas, the Argentinian supplier of overhaul kits for the Gemmer steering boxes, they said they "required" my tax information, and would accept only a direct bank transfer, no credit car or paypal.

As a frequent visitor to Argentina, I'm sympathetic with the screwy banking and business laws down there. Still, I won't give out my SSN to anyone that doesn't have to have it for filing my taxes. In fact, the Homeland Security group sent a letter to all pilots instructing us to not give this out to anyone but tax-filing related entities.

Anyone have experience with CHS to give me hope or an alternative way to solve this?

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
DPeterson3 is online now  
post #25 of 48 (permalink) Old 03-28-2017, 08:31 AM
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I recently shipped a couple Alfa body parts (from APE) to Edgar in Brasil and the authorities there insisted on having his Tax Identification Number or something similar. You are smart not to provide your SSN but perhaps another method of identification would suffice; maybe your drivers licence number.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DPeterson3 View Post
Generally, getting the pittman arm loose is much more difficult than getting it tight.
Does anyone know the correct torque spec. for the large nut on the bottom of the steering box and perhaps more importantly the correct adjustment procedure?

My concern is that the top adjustment screw was set first, while the bottom nut was loose; then the bottom nut was tightened. It seems like a bass-ackward way to do things but seems to have worked. I'd prefer not to cause any damage or accelerated wear.

I have not noticed any leaks but while I am at, it I guess I should check the level of the steering box lubricant. Any recommendations on what to use?

Mark
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post #26 of 48 (permalink) Old 03-28-2017, 12:38 PM
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I have no particular problem with the purchase of the CHS parts. They ask me my VAT number, no more.

Concerning the setting of the screw, I'm not sure you are talking of what I think, bellow a useful document :

Name:  Sans titre 2.jpg
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I use a semi fluid grease for such steering box (Penrite). I'm sure not to have any leak.

Serge
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post #27 of 48 (permalink) Old 03-28-2017, 01:44 PM
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DPeterson3, thank you for taking the time to outline what is involved in the steering boxes. Also, thank you Ruedi for offering to allow me to download the 1,300 pages you've archived. I've not downloaded the pages, but will shortly.

I do want to make it clear that - for the most part - the Alfa's I restore are for clients. I say this in that some ABB users feel I should know everything about every Alfa I restore. Good luck on that. I have a pretty high stack of original manuals (or good reprints) for the Alfa's I restore. But there are always a number of questions which crop up, even on models I've previously restored. So...if anyone feels I'm picking your brains then using it to make money - simply don't bother to reply to any of my questions. I feel the answers I receive from my questions make for a more complete/original restoration for my clients (not to mention the next person who will own the car).

Starting now. Until I have the manuals downloaded, what is the size of the 2600's wheels and their bolt/stud pattern and mm distance between them. Should the tires on the 2600 not remotely be viable, I 'might' have a set of wheels/tires which will fit.

I fill steering boxes with lithium grease and they never leak.

Biba

AlfaCyberSite.com
BibaRestorations.com
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post #28 of 48 (permalink) Old 03-28-2017, 01:50 PM
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Thank you very much Serge, this description is a big help! Since my steering arm was loose to begin with, the car may be okay.

Funny though Alfa Romeo does not say to re-connect the linkage to the steering arm (4). Perhaps those instructions follow...

I wonder what torque value should be applied to the bottom nut that holds the steering arm (4). Honestly at this point I don't think I could use a torque wrench on the nut, due to its location. I suspect Alfa Romeo is telling us do disconnect the linkage to the steering arm, not to disconnect the steering arm from the splined shaft.

Serge, did you help me by supplying Borrani wire wheel information and drawings about 15 years ago?

Mark
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post #29 of 48 (permalink) Old 03-28-2017, 01:52 PM
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I posted the above before I saw Serge's post. For now, I'll stick with lithium grease.

Biba

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post #30 of 48 (permalink) Old 03-28-2017, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Biba69 View Post
Starting now. Until I have the manuals downloaded, what is the size of the 2600's wheels and their bolt/stud pattern and mm distance between them. Should the tires on the 2600 not remotely be viable, I 'might' have a set of wheels/tires which will fit.

I fill steering boxes with lithium grease and they never leak.
The wheels are 400mm with 5 x 4-1/2 inch bolt pattern. I suggest you start a separate thread with any questions you may have that do not directly relate to a thread topic (or just to tell us about your restoration progress). I think everybody here will be happy to point you to threads were some topics are discussed in great detail.

As for lithium grease in the steering box, it really depends on the viscosity of the lubricant. There were reports from people who tried general purpose grease and found it didn't work because it worked itself off the worm and roller surfaces that need to be lubricated, and hence wear on worm and roller increased rather quickly. However, specialized self-leveling grease like Penrite's steering box lube seem to do a good job -- thick enough so it won't leak out of the box due to tolerances of the lower bushing, and liquid enough so it flows back to cover the worm and roller surfaces.

-Ruedi
'63 2600 Touring Spider (AR 191437, the car that started the 2000/2600 International Register, reassembly in progress)
ex-'65 2600 SZ (AR 856043, now a restomod in Austria)
Maintainer of a private 2600 SZ register (not the one in the Netherlands).
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