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post #46 of 62 (permalink) Old 04-25-2017, 09:49 PM
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https://www.borrani.com/alfa-romeo-wheels/2600.html

3753 from current Borrani website.

What is "reinforced"?

Getting definitive info from or about Borrani is not very easy.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
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post #47 of 62 (permalink) Old 04-25-2017, 11:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DPeterson3 View Post
What is "reinforced"?

Getting definitive info from or about Borrani is not very easy.
I haven't seen any documentation that explains in exact detail what "reinforced" means in Borrani terms (and I'm not sure their terminology stayed the same or was translated the same over time). I presume that (a) all 102/106 wheels were outside laced (as opposed to center laced like a bicycle rim) and (b) that the outside spokes were made stronger or thicker or were specially treated (altogether "reinforced") in some cases so that they could absorb greater cornering loads.

The drawing below shows the outside lacing and how the profile of the alloy "Record" rim is different from the "Standard" steel rim.

Name:  Borrani Dwg (150 DPI - cropped 700 wide).jpg
Views: 116
Size:  67.7 KB

-Ruedi
'63 2600 Touring Spider (AR 191437, the car that started the 2000/2600 International Register, reassembly in progress)
ex-'65 2600 SZ (AR 856043, now a restomod in Austria)
Maintainer of a private 2600 SZ register (not the one in the Netherlands).
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post #48 of 62 (permalink) Old 04-26-2017, 01:42 AM
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This what Borrani have to say

-RW3414 : original OE offered from AR at the big inning as steel chrome rim 165x400 (like the later AR1900 were equipped with steel chrome standard rims)- not available anymore.

-RW3582 : original OE option with light alloy rim ( more expensive)

-RW3753 : 165x400 alloy rim with special front hub to be clear calipers on new AR2600 with front disc brakes (I remind you all those wheels a transformation kits).

-RW3906 : 5jx400 for 2600 ( this was a final design that will use the original AR 2000 front hubs … so fits all of AR 2000 and 2600 – In my personal opinion a little too fat wheel for AR 2000 that’s way I always advise RW3582 for AR 2000 and RW3906 for AR 2600).

Ciao,
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post #49 of 62 (permalink) Old 04-26-2017, 06:27 AM
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Doug also,

Is the 3906 wider than the 3582? Both the 2000 and 2600 were delivered with 165-400 tires, so I don't understand your comment about a "too fat wheel".

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
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post #50 of 62 (permalink) Old 04-26-2017, 08:35 AM
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RW3906 https://www.borrani.com/alfa-romeo-w...7-rw-3906.html = 5" wide rim

RW3582 https://www.borrani.com/alfa-romeo-w...s-1957-65.html is what they call a 165X400 rim. the interesting question is how wide is a 165X400 rim, yes it is a rim designed for a 165R400 tyre, but doesn't clearly tell you how wide the rim is. I will find out.

i think it is a fashion issue. Now a days all the you rapscallions with base ball hats on back to front like to stretch a tyre on to a rim (this web site is a bit of fun https://tyrestretch.com/ ) And, i get it; modern Japanese cars that are modified, with crazy adverse camber, that are "slammed on the deck" are kind of funky. not my bag, i don't necessarily want one, but i do get it. The ride is dreadful, but sometimes there is a place for fashion over function. However on our cars a rounded side wall to a tyre looks right, and a thinner rim, does give better comfort, but less directional stability if you go too thin. for our kind of cars you want the right size rim for the tyre.

I shall find out more
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post #51 of 62 (permalink) Old 04-26-2017, 09:12 AM
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This has been an interesting thread. I like the idea of having slightly wider wheels and am currently running a set of 5.5" x 400 Borrani wheels. (The wheels shown in the Borrani link above are certainly not the actual wheels by the way. Those shown are very wide and center laced as well.) One thing that I can add from experience: 185 x 400 mm tires on 5.5" wide x 400 mm rims will 'scrub' in the rear wheel wells -even with air shocks (according to Norman Peterson).

Unfortunately my copy of "The Register of Italian Oddities" which may show the width of the RW-3582 wheels is at home. I'd probably go with a set of RW-3906 wheels, if I had it to do over again. Despite my previous less than satisfactory Pirelli SP-4000 experience on my 164-S, I'd sure like to try a set of their new, 165 x 400 mm tires on the Two-Liter.

I must say that I admire Doug's passion for wire wheels and vintage tires. It helps to have thicker skin with this group; good on you for hanging in here with us 'gear heads'.

Mark
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post #52 of 62 (permalink) Old 04-26-2017, 09:48 AM
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As a mid range between the 185 and the 165 we will soon have a 175HR400 Cinturato 175HR400 PIRELLI CINTURATO â„¢ CA67 | Longstone Tyres which might give you slightly better gearing and might not rub the wings. i can't guarantee they won't rub. you know what these funny old cars are like)

Here is a bit of my wire wheel car action. just for fun.




Mark - Thank you for your kind words
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post #53 of 62 (permalink) Old 04-26-2017, 08:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IRONBLOCK View Post
Unfortunately my copy of "The Register of Italian Oddities" which may show the width of the RW-3582 wheels is at home.
Well the 'Register' did not mention the dimensions of the RW-3582 wheels. But while going through my 3 inch thick Borrani wire wheel file, I did notice that the wheels I found in 1990 at Milano Spares in Australia for Tom Sanor's 2600 Sprint were stamped RW-3582, dated June 64, 5 x 400. I don't know why they would look any 'thicker' than the RW-3906 which is also 5 x 400 unless the wheels are constructed differently.

Ciao,

Mark
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post #54 of 62 (permalink) Old 04-26-2017, 09:21 PM
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It is like finding a ball of yarn with seven ends sticking out.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
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post #55 of 62 (permalink) Old 04-27-2017, 01:21 AM
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Hi

The difference between a 5"X400 rim and the rims that are called a 165X400 are surprisingly minimal.

5" rim is 127mm between the flanges

and a rim that is called 165X400 rim is 118mm wide between the flanges.

9mm difference, not much 3/8 of an inch.

It will make a difference, but not huge.

But there are also offsets to consider
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post #56 of 62 (permalink) Old 04-28-2017, 08:01 AM
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This process continues to reveal just how insufficient is the Borrani website and literature. One would think, in the modern world, we could simply review their website and find all data. Even Dougal's last post leaves it to us to ask "ok, what is the offset difference, and how do they compare to the original steel wheels?"

I imagine buying $10,000 worth of wheels, plus freight, and discovering that they won't fit, or that I need another part, and Borrani's reply is "well, you should have asked us such and such".

Vendors are well advised to make buying easy for their prospective customers.

Rant off...

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
DPeterson3 is online now  
post #57 of 62 (permalink) Old 04-28-2017, 08:35 AM
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Hmm

I sort of see what you mean.

i think one point is that it is fine just going along with what Borrani say. If they say it is the right wheel it is the right wheel, so to know all the different offsets etc isn't really important, because Borrani know it and get it right.

However on the other hand us old car nerds like to know stuff like that because it interests us.

But If Borrani just published all their drawings and knowledge that they have amassed over the years, they are just giving their strength to their competitors. they have the knowledge they have, because they were involved in the initial design, so the off sets will be what Alfa say they should be. so they will be right.

However i shall ask and see what we get.
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post #58 of 62 (permalink) Old 04-28-2017, 09:31 AM
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dougal,

You're right about giving way proprietary information. Borrani has every possible scenario locked away in their inventory of wheel data.

When they told me that they would send me four RW3942 wheels, four splined hubs and four knock-offs to fit my '64 Giulia Spider (all for a measly $12,500!) they didn't ask me a single thing about diameter, width, offset, nothing; just, "And how will you be paying for this?"

By the time I had regained consciousness, they were closed for the weekend, thankfully!

Oklahoma SNO Alfa Chapter Director
'64/66 Giulia Spider finally back in the garage and painted
'75 Olandase Blu Alfetta Sedan 2.0 & '88 Red Milano Verde; both long gone and dearly missed
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post #59 of 62 (permalink) Old 04-28-2017, 09:36 AM
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That's like saying one should just trust AFRA because they have years of experience with Alfa parts. I have never received an order from them that did not have errors, yet they have never admitted an error and made it right except for one time when the wrong part was worth about 3X more than the part I ordered and paid for.

All customers of Borrani are, at this point, enthusiasts and hobbyists. We want to make informed decisions.

I would like to know why one wheel is slightly wider than the other. Was a deficiency in the thinner wheel identified and corrected, but they continue offering the thinner wheel for those that want strict originality? If the slightly wider wheel improves handling, for instance, then I would prefer it over strict originality.

I spent many years in the imported auto parts business. Making customers feel they were well supported in their hobby was key to our success. I am baffled by the opaqueness of Borrani.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
DPeterson3 is online now  
post #60 of 62 (permalink) Old 05-02-2017, 03:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DPeterson3 View Post
That's like saying one should just trust AFRA because they have years of experience with Alfa parts. I have never received an order from them that did not have errors, yet they have never admitted an error and made it right except for one time when the wrong part was worth about 3X more than the part I ordered and paid for.

That is not Borrani.

I would suggest people don't have problems like that with Borrani. they don't supply the wrong wheels? and they do give good after sales service. If, for what ever reason, something does go wrong they look after you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Raimondo View Post
When they told me that they would send me four RW3942 wheels, four splined hubs and four knock-offs to fit my '64 Giulia Spider (all for a measly $12,500!) they didn't ask me a single thing about diameter, width, offset, nothing; just, "And how will you be paying for this?"
Borrani don't need to ask you these dimensional details they already know them because they developed them in period. when you tel them you have a " '64 Giulia Spider " they know what fits.

If you contact a proper Borrani agent and ask for a wheel for a 1900 https://www.borrani.com/alfa-romeo-wheels/1900.html then that is what you will get, and it will fit.

Of course if you have modified the car then it would be your obligation to tell them, so that Borrani can tailor your wheels accordingly.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DPeterson3 View Post
All customers of Borrani are, at this point, enthusiasts and hobbyists. We want to make informed decisions.

I would like to know why one wheel is slightly wider than the other. Was a deficiency in the thinner wheel identified and corrected, but they continue offering the thinner wheel for those that want strict originality? If the slightly wider wheel improves handling, for instance, then I would prefer it over strict originality.

Part of what is great about Borrani is also some times part of what is difficult about them, which is the history. the part codes that you see offered are RW designations for wheels that have been made at some point. The technical specifications of the wheels are all kept. However (this is the bit that answers your question) the reasons the different specifications for "up grade" wheels being designed the way they are; are of course not kept in the file.

For instance i could speculate that back in the 60's the demand for rims with the 165 section width dropped dramatically but 5" wide section was syill in bulk production the difference is minimal so they just used that instead.

Or it could be that some one wanted a wider rim for the track. That is all just speculation. because like i said the real reasons for the different wheels for a car are lost in the depths of time. If you could find the person that ordered the "special build" wheel, if they could remember, they might be able to tell you why it was specified that way.

The correct size wheel and tyre will handle best on the road. however a wider rim might make it better for the track. It will give greater road holding to withstand side forces (but only if you have the camber and springs set right to keep your foot print flat on the road) but all these elements are derogatory to handling and comfort. Which is why Alfa fitted those whelles and tyres, because with that chassis, those springs and that camber etc, the car handled at its best. It is all a balance.

Thinner rims make the tyre look better, in that the side wall is more rounded. but a wider rim can fill the wheel arch more.

The difference in the wheels we are talking about here is minimal.

However to recap, this is speculation, because the reasons for these changes are lost in time.
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