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post #16 of 226 (permalink) Old 09-29-2006, 06:00 PM Thread Starter
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so without having both side-by side to measure, is it more difficult to find wheels to fit a 2600 with discs or drums?

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post #17 of 226 (permalink) Old 09-29-2006, 06:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D&SW
so without having both side-by side to measure, is it more difficult to find wheels to fit a 2600 with discs or drums?

David

There are lots of wheels that will fit if you are willing to grind the cooling fins off the drums or grind off part of the calipers...

Last edited by dretceterini; 09-29-2006 at 06:15 PM.
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post #18 of 226 (permalink) Old 09-29-2006, 08:21 PM
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Hello David,
Some 15" rims will fit the disc braked 2600's, but the drum braked 2000 and early series 2600 definitely require a 16" (or larger) rim to fit over the drums.
As I posted earlier, the stock Ford, full size, 16" rims will work, without interfering with the body work, on the drum braked cars, but they are UGLY!
As Ford and the older Chrysler (Dodge) products, used the same 5 bolt pattern as the 2600, and apparently the older larger BMW's, we should be able to track down some acceptable "After market" Mags.
Cheers, Adrian
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post #19 of 226 (permalink) Old 09-29-2006, 11:30 PM
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Last year, I had a chance to view a 2600 Sprint fitted with 16" factory Toyota Celica Supra wheels. I'm thinking these were the early/mid 80's variety. Being new to the Alfa world, I didn't ask (or know) if there were any special modifications necessary to fit the wheels. They were, however, as shown in the pic, quite ugly. Also, note the difference in the front and rear wheels... the rears appear to be wider. Different offset?
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Last edited by Alflorio; 09-29-2006 at 11:37 PM.
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post #20 of 226 (permalink) Old 09-30-2006, 10:41 PM
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Well I'm not sure about the rear offset in the photo, but the stance certainly would not become good handling. Further, if the car was lowered, and the suspension tightened up, the front wheels would inevitably foul the front arches on compression and deflection. The rears may "squeak" through with a light "1/4 pump" and the pinch lip flattened, provided all the bushings in the rear axle have been renewed with "Delrin" or "Poly." The wheels are pleasant enough visually, but still inappropriate to the styling of the Sprint. Now, if Cromadoro or Borrani would do a compatible GTA styled rim for the 2600!
Cheers, Adrian
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post #21 of 226 (permalink) Old 10-02-2006, 08:54 PM
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Smile British Wire Wheels

Gentlemen, British Wire Wheels will make you beautiful wire wheels that take 205x55.16 with knockoffs for less than $1,500.00. A friend of mine has a set on his two liter spider in Costa Mesa. I'll verify his source, cost, and get photos. Jay

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post #22 of 226 (permalink) Old 10-02-2006, 10:27 PM
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Wow, affordable wire wheels would be very tempting. I've always envisioned lovely Borrani wires on these cars, but wasn't willing to lose my arm and leg to cost. 205/55-16 sounds like the right size, too.
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post #23 of 226 (permalink) Old 10-02-2006, 11:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twoliterlover
Gentlemen, British Wire Wheels will make you beautiful wire wheels that take 205x55.16 with knockoffs for less than $1,500.00. A friend of mine has a set on his two liter spider in Costa Mesa. I'll verify his source, cost, and get photos. Jay
A few things to keep in mind:

1. The 102 cars had Type 42 hubs, while the 106 cars had Type 52 hubs. Type 52 hubs may fit the 102 cars, but not vice versa. In my inquiries, I found manufacturing the hubs was the big problem. However, I heard that an owner in Germany or the Netherlands successfully converted Jaguar hubs to fit his 2600 Touring Spider.

2. From inquiries I had made with British Wire Wheels a few years ago, I doubt this price is for a set nor includes the hubs and spinners -- $1500 may be the price per wheel without hubs. I understand from a recent write-up in the German/Swiss club magazine that a set of new 165-400 Borrani wheels with hubs and spinners costs about USD 10k.

3. The 205/55x16 tires are typically tubeless. With very few exceptions, wire wheels require tubes to be fitted (because of the tire profile and the fact that the nipples of spokes are not gas tight). It's not a good idea to use a tube in tubeless tires. They won't be held correctly on the rim.

-Ruedi
'63 2600 Touring Spider (AR 191437, the car that started the 2000/2600 International Register, reassembly in progress)
ex-'65 2600 SZ (AR 856043, now a restomod in Austria)
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post #24 of 226 (permalink) Old 10-03-2006, 07:26 AM
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Wire Wheels Nevertheless

Gentlemen, Gentlemen, Nobody in his right mind (eh Adrian?) would ever think of racing a 2600, let alone a two liter. So the horrible problems everyone posits about that usage on tires for them should be moot (i.e. not a valid question and the argument only fun but pointless, since the answer is purely academic and no longer germain). The British Wire Wheel knock off uses the regular Ford bolt pattern on the adopters for front as well as in rear. The purists agree that the knock off does NOT look like a Borrani. But the adopter was chosen just so the wheels would be knockoffs. And, if you are not a total purist, British will make bolt on wheels with 205x55R16 with out and out Ford bolt pattern. In that event you must recall that two liter and 2600 have left hand threads on left side wheel studs. I would trade all for right hand and use nice shiny chromed acorn nuts. Biggest problem is that the front wheels have the end of steering links right at inner edge of backing plate. Edge of wheels cannot be further inside of that unless wider than the standard 15 1/2 inches (i.e. the 400 mm dimensions).

When I put wire wheels on my favorite spider (AR10204*00126) many years ago I wanted to have the splines on the hub itself as in usual Borrani installation fashion. So I used 1900 front hubs. I found a lathe that could turn the larger diameter two liter front axle stubs down to 1900 dimensions by centering outside end of stub on a pin and driving with a dog arrangement on a 13" swing. I understand others have been able to make the change with different bearings, but I did not think of that solution. And the spiders on rear fit without modification so that I use 165x400 wire wheels. I still do not like the old cookie cutters.

I would also comment that I once had a Pininfarina coupe with 600x16 wire wheels that would not fit over my two liter two liter brake drums. The early 1900 models had a different drum without the neat fins. I suspect those wheels might have gone onto my two liter with the 1900 drums. But John Thorne from Houston drove up and provided me my full set of 1900 Borrani wheels, hubs, spiders and two eared knockoffs as part trade for that car years and years ago. He also is the one who once owned the 105 series two liter sprint now the last running two liter sprint in the US which is still in Katy, Texas. We should all hope to see that car one of these years. I hoped to see it in Tulsa at the National AROC Convention this year, or at least pictures when I could not make it.

As for tubeless tires on wire rims, I would suspect that British Tire Company might have some suggestion and solution such as inner cover over the wire wheel nipples, but I cannot answer that. I use tubes in my wire wheels.

As for price, remember these are NOT Borrani wires, and making them is not all that mysterious. The prices are a great deal less. I protest that they do have a good appearance regardless. Only the knock off might not be as visually appealing. One final comment. 205/55R16 tires are not all that cheap either.

My father was an International Harvester dealer for years. He had a great shop including a lathe that could turn cannon barrels. We did cut out some two liter wheels centers and using the 16 inch IHC wheels wheels originally made for wooden spokes welded together wheels with not as deep a "well" in the center which made tires difficult except for 600x16 using tubes of that era with a "taller" profile. Had trouble clearing wheel wells. New lower profile tires have much stiffer beads. I doubt I could get them to mount on the IHC wheels.

Conclusion: British Wire Wheels can make them the way you would like them. If you don't like the large unaesthetic knock offs, then get some with the ford bolt pattern. Watch out for the inner edge of the tire so that the wheel dare not extend to the interior further than the depth of the drum. Most will be to outside, but not too much or the fender line is a problem. 205/55R16 seems to work okay.

But don't go out and order these wire wheels wildly until I get the full specifications, costs, etc from my friend in Costa Mesa. Another two liter lover friend in Portland and I had worked out the fitting (actually took a car to a dealer and had him measure) but he is the one who bit the bullet and had them made (we were too cheap to follow our own convictions) ordered a set for his totally restored two liter. They look stunning and wonderful, but, unfortunately, I still have his engine and he hasn't been able to drive around on them. I am still practicing law and cannot yet pursue my Alfa hobbies full time in my wonderful ALFA G'RAJ MAHAL while there are so many unfortunates who beg my help in getting out of their predicaments. His engine will be perfect, but without a power plant his vehicle can only look pretty -- as it certainly does with the shiny wire wheels and American size rubber .

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Last edited by twoliterlover; 10-03-2006 at 07:30 AM.
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post #25 of 226 (permalink) Old 10-03-2006, 12:50 PM
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Dayton Wire Wheel makes Borrani look -a-likes in tubeless spec.

I'll resist taking the bait on the "racing opinion' at this point and direct you instead to other posts in this category that document
Alfa's 2600 FIA efforts and success.
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post #26 of 226 (permalink) Old 10-04-2006, 12:39 PM Thread Starter
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I've contacted Dayton and they say they can pretty much make any of their wheels to fit the 2600.

So my questions are,

1. which wheel is the most appropriate for the classic "Borrani" look?

2. should the wheel be done as a knock off type or as a bolt on?

their website is here:http://www.daytonwirewheels.com/wirewheels.html

what is the best approach?

BTW Dayton said:

"The wheels would come in the alum. rim / stainless spokes / chrome hub. All lug nuts are included as well as center caps and all hardware. The price for the set is $2,662.00. The wheels will be highly polished aluminum and stainless and they look great"

David

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post #27 of 226 (permalink) Old 10-04-2006, 04:56 PM
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lOOKS LIKE PRICES HAVE GONE UP

Dayton -- Okay. Good work. I suspect the dealer would "eat" the shipping. Nevertheless, it's already about $2750.00, so the prices have gone up a lot in a year. If made to specifications they ought to fit perfectly. One would think tire size would have to be at least 16" and dare not be too large in profile to stay within the fenders and not drag on the steering parts. 205/55R16 would seem the right size. They are NOT cheap. If Dayton I'd want the two ear knockoffs WITHOUT logo and try to put Alfa badges on the outside.

But I personally would prefer using the "universal" front hub of British Wheel which has the splines on it instead of on "spiders" bolted onto the drum which must fit outside of the standard hub and then need wider wheel centers go around them. Using the adaptor of Dayton might seem to make the center of the wire wheel look unnaturally large. British Wheel "universal" front hub could be fitted with the right bearings to allow use on two liter or 2600 stub axle and still leave a way to fit drum or brake disk and look more authentic because the center of the wheel would not be so huge. Knockoffs on those hubs might not be so wide acress as to remind one of dinner plates. Someone check that out.

But let us look first at photos when they come from Costa Mesa, because my friend now tells me he used Dayton instead of British Wheel. His looked great from what I recall.

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post #28 of 226 (permalink) Old 10-05-2006, 05:15 AM Thread Starter
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BTW can anyone post pics or provide a link to good full side-view photos of 2000/2600 spiders with wires?

Much appreciated.

David

'74 GTV, '64 2600 Spider
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post #29 of 226 (permalink) Old 10-05-2006, 09:38 AM
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BTW can anyone post pics or provide a link to good full side-view photos of 2000/2600 spiders with wires?
I don't have many pictures (and none of them very good), but here we go:

The 1st picture probably shows the car with Borrani 3906 rims and Pirelli vintage tires, whose tire details are shown in this thread.

The 2nd picture shows a car with Borrani 2857 rims and Michelins.

The 3rd and 4th pictures show a Swiss car with what I believe to be 16" direct bolt-on wheels. I didn't get to talk to the owner and don't recall the manufacturer for sure but vaguely remember something like "RTG Lugano."

All of these pictures are from the 2006 Alfa car meet in Sinsheim, Germany.
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-Ruedi
'63 2600 Touring Spider (AR 191437, the car that started the 2000/2600 International Register, reassembly in progress)
ex-'65 2600 SZ (AR 856043, now a restomod in Austria)
Maintainer of a private 2600 SZ register (not the one in the Netherlands).
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post #30 of 226 (permalink) Old 10-05-2006, 10:19 AM Thread Starter
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thanks Ruedi...always appreciated. (it was your original photos of the tires that got me started on this...it's all your fault)

The wheels in the first photo look pretty nice and if I am seeing things correctly, appear to have a fairly large center dish.

So if that's the case, the bolt-on Daytons may not look too off-the-mark with a 2 or 3 arm spinner on them. That I guess is really the design question, for those of us interested in finding a modern tire in place of the 165hr400. However, I think more mfg info, photos and a real-life experience of someone who's done this are going to be invaluable, if not mandatory before making the investment.

Tire size is an issue; I looked up the respective diameters of the 165-400 and 205 55-16 and there's about a 1 1/2" difference between the two with the 205's being shorter. (Am I correct in understanding that the 165's are about 26.6" diameter?)

Better for getting off the line, but whether speedo error is tolerable?

David

'74 GTV, '64 2600 Spider
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